TechnomagePvP on Jul 9, 2015 wrote:

The funny thing is, we're talking pvp here. If you need 5 turns of buffing to kill half the units on the board with Fog, you really really need to learn how to play but I mean 3 turns would make little difference, you still have 1 turn to buff/protect then hit which makes a very nice playability in both PvP AND PvE, again if you RELY on a single power and not mix it up you're never gonna have the fun of figuring out everything the class has to offer.

Again, seriously leave the advice for the players who've pvped for moons, who dedicate there very existence on PvP. We've never asked for a nerf that would effect PvE, at least I haven't intentionally. We've sat back and allowed the major things that make PvE even so easy stay how they are because kids struggle, we understand not everyone knows the easy tricks so they rely on this. This is a compromise not a NERF it's a Balanced Compromise you keep the idea of being able to not be seen/targetted AKA protected but just for 2 turns less so PvPer's don't have a broken enviroment even the Top Buckler Harry says its broken, we all know if someone big like that has the guts to say somethings broken and ask for a change to it for there OWN class there has to be something wrong in it. I understand you Bucklers who don't know much more then to Fog, Moo Robe, Run over buffing, Purge Attack may cry but I promise you, you can do that just a bit less buffing or no Moo Robe while using Fog :) its called adjustment and strategy, we've tried and failed consistently as a whole of a community to find a solid counter for every class to beat Fog Consistently. I don't believe in changing whats not needed to change, but I believe if there is no consistent way to counter something it's considered broken* which Fog is easily in the category of. Maybe if Fin's goggles kept scent there wouldn't be a problem, but there is, there is that broken 5 step strategy to beat anyone as a Buckler, there should never be something like that in this game.

Just because you have PVP-ed for "moons" doesn't give you the right to tell us that our opinions are not valid. Basically, this is like telling me to sit down and shut up! Well, too bad for you, I won't; I will speak up in defense of my use of Black Fog.
You say all Swashbucklers follow a set strategy, but when was the last time there was ANY innovation or creativity shown in the Hall? I've been told that in a PVP duel I MUST use certain companions and that its a good idea to buy certain companions from the Crowns Shop. Is that your idea of PVP strategy?
What if I want to try something new or different than the rest of the herd? You will say "Well, you'll lose." if that's the WORSE thing that happen, so what? Nobody wins all the time. And you know what ? I may learn something new by trying something new.
When Ranked comes, I predict it will shake up the "old order" out of the rut they've been inhabiting for "moons".

anecorbie on Jul 10, 2015 wrote:

Just because you have PVP-ed for "moons" doesn't give you the right to tell us that our opinions are not valid. Basically, this is like telling me to sit down and shut up! Well, too bad for you, I won't; I will speak up in defense of my use of Black Fog.
You say all Swashbucklers follow a set strategy, but when was the last time there was ANY innovation or creativity shown in the Hall? I've been told that in a PVP duel I MUST use certain companions and that its a good idea to buy certain companions from the Crowns Shop. Is that your idea of PVP strategy?
What if I want to try something new or different than the rest of the herd? You will say "Well, you'll lose." if that's the WORSE thing that happen, so what? Nobody wins all the time. And you know what ? I may learn something new by trying something new.
When Ranked comes, I predict it will shake up the "old order" out of the rut they've been inhabiting for "moons".

To be fair, we are not sitting on our hands either doing nothing. You are assuming that people have not been coming up with strategies and tactics to deal with Black Fog since the change to hidden last September. That's just not true at all.

Strategies come and go. Before last November, no one used the Beastbanner and Staff combination, now you'll see it frequently. Just in the recent months, Soul Shroud has become really popular in PvP. A month or so ago there was this Gallant Defense strategy people were trying to use. Just a week ago I tried a new strategy with the Hoodoo monkey, etc. There are many example of PvPers showing "innovation or creativity" like you mention. Do you really believe that no one in the past 10 months has been trying and working on ways to reliably beat Black Fog?

You must definitely can, and should, try out new things in PvP all the time. You will lose or win, either way you will find ways to improve on your new found strategy. That's how metas are born and evolve. But if you find something that works really really well, wouldn't you keep using that strategy to keep on winning? Some things just work better than others and once people find them out, that is what they stick with.

The problem comes when an aspect of the game is so strong that no matter what new things people are trying out, that one power or item or companion still wins duels 80% of the time. When it comes to that, it is no longer about players not coming with new strategies, its about whatever the problem is being broken.

The argument about "new strategies" worked well 10 months ago when the changes to hidden just came out, but after 10 months of players doing thousands of duels and the complains about Fog still being the same, then it is no longer a matter of players not adapting to changes. It is a matter of a power simply being way too strong and needing to be changed.

Spiral Cowboy on Jul 10, 2015 wrote:

First of all, it's mam...not sir. Sorry, I know the name can be misleading, but Spiral Cowgirl sounds funny. Secondly, I didn't say playing as a Swashbuckler was hard, I said it wasn't easy. Try reading posts before you reply, sir...or mam...person...whatever. I don't claim to be a top tier Swashbuckler...yet. I've only just recently taken a serious interest in pvp because I've run out of pirate classes to max and gear to farm for. However, I win a lot more than I lose and I get better each time. Besides, let's be honest. Pvp isn't exactly rocket science now, is it. There is less separating the worst from the best than you'd like to admit. Having said that, nobody was born the best. It takes time and practice. I am dedicated to pvp now and practice everyday and soon I will be among the best unless you guys just decide to ban the Swashbuckler class altogether, lol. Also, what's that about having a Privy to protect me? Is that another P101 Central rule? Every team has to have a Privy? I can see it now..."Effective immediately in all P101 Central tournament matches, each team must have one Privateer. This Privateer must wear at least one article of purple or teal colored clothing and may not use a pet that has the name Big Stinky, Little Stinky or King Stinky, except on Tuesdays and Fridays after 3 pm during months that begin with the letter J. Actually, you know what? We're banning any pet name that has Stinky in it at all because it's just too much of a distraction." Lol. Sounds about right. Anyway, I may not be the best Swashbuckler, but I'm closer to being the best than I am to being the worst. My motto is 'any time, any place'. The name is Wicked Erin and I'm easy to find. Just follow the trail of destruction I leave in my wake

its common knowledge to have a privateer in a 4v4 on your team, if you pvped at all you'd know a team without a privy going against an equally skilled team with a privy wil lose 9/10 times/ and wicked erin, this is robert you know me, and refuse to fight me, so please head my advice on the privateer in 4v4 its very beneficial

Alex Hawkins on Jul 10, 2015 wrote:

To get back on topic with your original post.

I feel that your compromise on Black Fog its too much. I feel that doing both reducing it to 3 turns AND reducing the power to x1.5 its too much. I think as long as either one of those two things are changed, then it would be fine.

To put it in perspective, Black Fog its the only AoE buff in the game that its as strong as it's single target equivalent (Walk in Darkness). Usually when you have a buff that affects the whole team, you want it to be weaker than the one that affects just a single target to create a balance. You can see this with the single critical buffs and AoE critical buffs. Both Shadowdance and Discipline are 10 turns, but because one is single target and the other is AoE, the single target one is stronger. Same with Revive vs Reinforce. Same with Valor's Armor vs Valar's Rampart. There are multiple examples where the single target its stronger than the AoE, because that's how you find the balance about a power affecting multiple people. It is the reason why the Musket trick shots are x2 damage while the Assassin Strikes are x3 damage, one is AoE the other is single target.

Yet Black Fog throws this out of the window. It lasts 5 turns and its AoE. Walk in Darkness its 5 turns and is single target. Black Fog SHOULD be weaker than Walk in Darkness in either duration or strength (but not both) because it is AoE compared, yet for some reason it is not and this is where the problem lies of it being unbalanced.

So I do like your ideas for sure, either reduce to 3 turns and keep it AoE x2 damage OR keep it at 5 turns and reduce damage to x1.5, but not both as that will make it too weak and I don't want it to go back to how useless it was before the hidden update.

I also love your summoner debuff idea for when you summon many units at once. I don't think it should be something super extreme (Nova Blaster I'm looking at you) but something small would suffice.

Truly, thank you for your input! I appreciate what you said about the compromises I recommended; they are a bit extreme. Perhaps the summoner fatigue could instead just freeze the summoner for one turn. not actually damage or weaken them, just stop them from performing any action the turn after they summon.

zuto4011a on Jul 10, 2015 wrote:

its common knowledge to have a privateer in a 4v4 on your team, if you pvped at all you'd know a team without a privy going against an equally skilled team with a privy wil lose 9/10 times/ and wicked erin, this is robert you know me, and refuse to fight me, so please head my advice on the privateer in 4v4 its very beneficial

Yes I know you. I don't refuse to fight you, it's just always bad timing. I spend lots of time helping people with quests and I also make frequent Tower and Arena runs. I would love to battle you because I know you're a top player and the the best way to improve is to take on the best. Yes I know having a Privy on your team is a huge help lol, but the matches I take part in are the ones that just kinda 'happen' in the Brawling Hall. I would really like to be involved in a more structured system because the matches I find in the Avery realm Brawling Hall are no longer a challenge. I do a little realm hopping, but can never seem to find any groups doing pvp in any of the realms I check. You P101 Central guys seem to think I am being disrespectful of you and that's not the case. I just feel very strongly about nerfing a class and I don't think it's necessary with Black Fog. I've read enough posts to know that Swashbucklers are not all powerful. I've read posts where Privateers say that only a top Swashbuckler has any chance of beating them at all, let alone with any frequency. To me that illustrates the fact that Black Fog is not as overwhelming as some people claim it is. If it were, Privateers wouldn't act so surprised when a Swashbuckler beats them. I even saw a post where someone acted disgusted with the fact that a Swashbuckler won a P101 Central tournament. Why do they find it so hard to believe that a Buckler could win a tournament unless the odds are against it? I will gladly face your Privy with my Buckler and when we're done, your Buckler can face my Privy. Sound fair?

btw doubloons should be banned from ranked pvp, so easy to abuse, lemme put this into perspective ratbeard for you, 4 damage doubloons+4 nova blasters+ first round= flawless win before the enemy can even see their own powers

Spiral Cowboy on Jul 10, 2015 wrote:

First of all, it's mam...not sir. Sorry, I know the name can be misleading, but Spiral Cowgirl sounds funny. Secondly, I didn't say playing as a Swashbuckler was hard, I said it wasn't easy. Try reading posts before you reply, sir...or mam...person...whatever. I don't claim to be a top tier Swashbuckler...yet. I've only just recently taken a serious interest in pvp because I've run out of pirate classes to max and gear to farm for. However, I win a lot more than I lose and I get better each time. Besides, let's be honest. Pvp isn't exactly rocket science now, is it. There is less separating the worst from the best than you'd like to admit. Having said that, nobody was born the best. It takes time and practice. I am dedicated to pvp now and practice everyday and soon I will be among the best unless you guys just decide to ban the Swashbuckler class altogether, lol. Also, what's that about having a Privy to protect me? Is that another P101 Central rule? Every team has to have a Privy? I can see it now..."Effective immediately in all P101 Central tournament matches, each team must have one Privateer. This Privateer must wear at least one article of purple or teal colored clothing and may not use a pet that has the name Big Stinky, Little Stinky or King Stinky, except on Tuesdays and Fridays after 3 pm during months that begin with the letter J. Actually, you know what? We're banning any pet name that has Stinky in it at all because it's just too much of a distraction." Lol. Sounds about right. Anyway, I may not be the best Swashbuckler, but I'm closer to being the best than I am to being the worst. My motto is 'any time, any place'. The name is Wicked Erin and I'm easy to find. Just follow the trail of destruction I leave in my wake

Now I understand, maybe you just have to understand why central has rules.

Central was made as a place for a competitive community where we made and recently agreed on changes in the rules which if you wanted to vote in you could've no one stopped you but you didn't bother or just didn't know. Anyway you can't really say much about a system you've never tried before can you, now unlike you we can talk about all sorts of pvp here we've done many matches vs Buckler and I can tell you central has plenty I've recently fought in both tours out right now every round a Buckler lol yet I've also started to try more no rules matches since you guys had a point I only played in central for a bit (Personal dispute) but I can successfully say it's still the same thing, even trying these strats on my Buck it's almost impossible to take out a decent buckler. I mean what can you do against that hidden purge, actually now I've started to debate maybe purge should effect hidden since it's a buff to damage I mean it only makes sense right?

But point here is no not every team needs a privy BUT if you're playing Buckler you prob should have a Privy on your team since you're a glass cannon, also double buckler isn't a bad option because guess what DOUBLE FOG IS JUST STUPID and that's a fact my friend. Double Fog is just insane.

Also this is going to a different quote about Fog being useless before the update, um hit and run strat? Heard of it, it was insane actually and very consistent. First you would hide all your units behind pillars, buff with agil/strength to cater towards goro/fan/etc then move up in range but still out of sight while moving companions in, fog and then you would send Goro in to deal mass while moving the other 2 companions out of range of the companions and split up so only 1 will have there hidden removed, other would deal mass damage or if you got risky you would move in range with all comps then do fog and hit in the same round, run back heal up and move bak up

TechnomagePvP on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

Lol cute, you think Robert has a different class other then privy? He barely could stand lvling up a Buck to 30 to prepare for low lvl pvp when rank comes out XD!!!

And to just say that technically the Buckler who won a tournament didn't 'win it' he lost 3-0 (TECHNICALLY you know what I'm talking about Alex/Wolf) in the finals when Fog was allowed even vs a Witch, but things came up and the win was given to Wolfy instead, but again Wolfy even admits this that he was new to the game at the time so really didn't know what he was doing.

Also I don't see why we can't simply all agree on such a simple balancing mechanic, 3 turns of a Fog sounds fair you still get that use of protection from it for a round to do anything and a round to hit plus you get x2 damage for an entire team that sounds still pretty sick to me, 5 turns is just insane again back to the point we can't find a consistant way to beat it because it is broken no matter how many strategies we try to develop it still can even beat people like Robert WITHOUT MOO ROBE even, look at the 1v1 No Rules tour R2 (I think) Rob faced Wolfy and Wolfy doesn't have moo robe or anything while Rob had Moo Robe, Staff, Banner ya as you see Bucklers can still win with just the fog advantage vs all that at least twice, that's pretty consistantly over powered that 1 power can give such an amazing advantage because lets be honest if wolf was any other class then Buckler he would've been wrecked because of the gear disadvantage he had (But he would've won on another class if he had the gear IMO) so just saying the consistent amount of evidence and data shows there needs to be a nerf to fog, but I'm sure Wolfy would love to prove that to you.

Again to go to the point of the thread, I still agree with the 3 turn Fog (Only the 3 turn nerf), and for the summons I think that'll just be players needing patience when it releases and a summon cap of 9 (Not including pets) for each team so that's only a maximum of 24 extra units

You have forced me to respond, good job (I was going to anyway, just later lol).

Responding to your comments first tech, in that tournament I won (actually was 3-2), it was the very last tournament where black fog was allowed with regular central rules. I don't deny I was still learning a lot about the game and that fog definitely gave me a 1up, but at the same time I was effectively walled even with fog and I struggled at many points because of the gear difference. Nowadays, almost a year later I think, anyone who has become serious about pvp (myself included) has gotten (or is trying to get) the necessary gear and exposure to mechanics and strategies so they can be successful in ANY matchup. If you ask any good buckler, they can easily tell you fog is OP because there is no doubt that it is. I personally have grown so much as a duelist that I do not even use fog if I can because I like as level a game as possible.

No fog. Oh black fog, what are we going to do with you. I personally loved the suggestion of reducing it to 3 rounds, but ultimately we can only speak our opinions and let them be heard. Ratbeard is the one who makes those calls, but he should really look into such an adjustment.

Also I encourage learning more than just one class, or at least understanding I from a neutral view. This will make it easier to see where things might need to be looked at and "balanced", hence Central rules. I could go on, but for now just saying that things ARE possible unless you give up on trying to learn how to get around them.

TechnomagePvP on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

Lol cute, you think Robert has a different class other then privy? He barely could stand lvling up a Buck to 30 to prepare for low lvl pvp when rank comes out XD!!!

And to just say that technically the Buckler who won a tournament didn't 'win it' he lost 3-0 (TECHNICALLY you know what I'm talking about Alex/Wolf) in the finals when Fog was allowed even vs a Witch, but things came up and the win was given to Wolfy instead, but again Wolfy even admits this that he was new to the game at the time so really didn't know what he was doing.

Also I don't see why we can't simply all agree on such a simple balancing mechanic, 3 turns of a Fog sounds fair you still get that use of protection from it for a round to do anything and a round to hit plus you get x2 damage for an entire team that sounds still pretty sick to me, 5 turns is just insane again back to the point we can't find a consistant way to beat it because it is broken no matter how many strategies we try to develop it still can even beat people like Robert WITHOUT MOO ROBE even, look at the 1v1 No Rules tour R2 (I think) Rob faced Wolfy and Wolfy doesn't have moo robe or anything while Rob had Moo Robe, Staff, Banner ya as you see Bucklers can still win with just the fog advantage vs all that at least twice, that's pretty consistantly over powered that 1 power can give such an amazing advantage because lets be honest if wolf was any other class then Buckler he would've been wrecked because of the gear disadvantage he had (But he would've won on another class if he had the gear IMO) so just saying the consistent amount of evidence and data shows there needs to be a nerf to fog, but I'm sure Wolfy would love to prove that to you.

Again to go to the point of the thread, I still agree with the 3 turn Fog (Only the 3 turn nerf), and for the summons I think that'll just be players needing patience when it releases and a summon cap of 9 (Not including pets) for each team so that's only a maximum of 24 extra units

my buck isnt lvl 30 yet, i couldnt stand lvling him to lvl 16, i hate pve so much its just so easy its ridiculously grindy

TechnomagePvP on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

Now I understand, maybe you just have to understand why central has rules.

Central was made as a place for a competitive community where we made and recently agreed on changes in the rules which if you wanted to vote in you could've no one stopped you but you didn't bother or just didn't know. Anyway you can't really say much about a system you've never tried before can you, now unlike you we can talk about all sorts of pvp here we've done many matches vs Buckler and I can tell you central has plenty I've recently fought in both tours out right now every round a Buckler lol yet I've also started to try more no rules matches since you guys had a point I only played in central for a bit (Personal dispute) but I can successfully say it's still the same thing, even trying these strats on my Buck it's almost impossible to take out a decent buckler. I mean what can you do against that hidden purge, actually now I've started to debate maybe purge should effect hidden since it's a buff to damage I mean it only makes sense right?

But point here is no not every team needs a privy BUT if you're playing Buckler you prob should have a Privy on your team since you're a glass cannon, also double buckler isn't a bad option because guess what DOUBLE FOG IS JUST STUPID and that's a fact my friend. Double Fog is just insane.

Also this is going to a different quote about Fog being useless before the update, um hit and run strat? Heard of it, it was insane actually and very consistent. First you would hide all your units behind pillars, buff with agil/strength to cater towards goro/fan/etc then move up in range but still out of sight while moving companions in, fog and then you would send Goro in to deal mass while moving the other 2 companions out of range of the companions and split up so only 1 will have there hidden removed, other would deal mass damage or if you got risky you would move in range with all comps then do fog and hit in the same round, run back heal up and move bak up

purge should affect all hiddens since it does buff your damage and give you the hidden affect, why it doesnt affect it i'll never know *looks at ratbeards horrible planning with this*

zuto4011a on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

purge should affect all hiddens since it does buff your damage and give you the hidden affect, why it doesnt affect it i'll never know *looks at ratbeards horrible planning with this*

Gonna be honest here, poisons assassins strikes and hiddens (heals i consider universal) are ALL bucklers really play with. Witchdoctors have MojoStorms, Jobus, mournsongs.... muskets and their bombs and endless traps and aoe shot..... privateers and their amazing team support and AoE buffs for accuracy/dodge, defensive powers + healing... then bucks with their X2 hastes and sheer rush&crush capabilities....

All classes have their big pros and cons, and I refuse to let people constantly beat up on this ONE class for this ONE power they have. No one I complaining about Muskets and their endless bombs. No one is trashing bucks for an easy 3 round wins with highlands charge. No one is complaining about witchdoctors and Mojo storms/Jobus Embrace AoEs. Privy and zeal isn't even being mentioned, but Half the argument is about a single buckler power that is WAY TOO OP?

Step 1 to being successful at PvP: Understanding the Meta
Once you do that, you can go places because you know how everything works and will know how to counter or efficiently deal with a give scenario.
Bucklers are being referred to almost as the "anti class" and it's beginning to bother me that people can't see how ACTUALLY BALANCED the game is right now. I could argue certain matchups, no doubt, but it is possible to beat fog and other crazy strategies with a PLAN.

I'll go fight a musketeer on my buckler with Goronado Ratbeard and El Toro. Now is that a good team to vs that class? Is that a good "counter" with a "plan" of action to effectively beat a musketeer? Just shedding some light on some factors that might be dismissed in this "dscussion". There are so many factors that go into each and every pvp match (one of them being luck by the way) that I cant even make a decent point without it getting thrown right back at me. Everyone should be a little more open minded, because the slightest tweaks can drastically change the meta (take a look at a central match with nausica banned for example).

Ratbeard on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

1) Doubloons will be ON for Test Realm. Because we have the ability to selectively turn powers on and off in Ranked PvP, we want to gather the test realm data before we make any broad decisions on Doubloons.

2) It is unlikely that Black Fog will receive any change at all, prior to at least one season of ranked; and if it is changed in any way, you can be sure that it will be done to minimize the impact to PvE.

Please play on the Test Realm when it is available-- there are other changes to PvP that will influence the way that everything works; and some of you may need some time to recalibrate your strategies.

The "3 round duration" being discussed here is not on the radar-- in the first place, because that directly affects PvE, which has been explained enough already, I hope. In the second place, a change to duration it doesn't actually address any of the supposedly broken aspects of the power (eg, it still has "no counter," and it still doubles the damage of the entire team).

To sum up, you can all (PvP and PvE) be confident that if it is going to change at all, it will be done to minimize the impact on PvE players, that any "fix" actually addresses actual balance issues with the power, and (hopefully) it will be done with one bullet.

gg we fought, i won

Am I reading that right? You defeated a Swashbuckler who had access to Black Fog? I was led to believe that was impossible.

Alex I need you! Robert, get ready for the Broken Nova Blaster strategy, let us just make everyone wish they listened to us before Test realm gets through its first week.

Wolf SkullRider on Jul 13, 2015 wrote:

Gonna be honest here, poisons assassins strikes and hiddens (heals i consider universal) are ALL bucklers really play with. Witchdoctors have MojoStorms, Jobus, mournsongs.... muskets and their bombs and endless traps and aoe shot..... privateers and their amazing team support and AoE buffs for accuracy/dodge, defensive powers + healing... then bucks with their X2 hastes and sheer rush&crush capabilities....

All classes have their big pros and cons, and I refuse to let people constantly beat up on this ONE class for this ONE power they have. No one I complaining about Muskets and their endless bombs. No one is trashing bucks for an easy 3 round wins with highlands charge. No one is complaining about witchdoctors and Mojo storms/Jobus Embrace AoEs. Privy and zeal isn't even being mentioned, but Half the argument is about a single buckler power that is WAY TOO OP?

Step 1 to being successful at PvP: Understanding the Meta
Once you do that, you can go places because you know how everything works and will know how to counter or efficiently deal with a give scenario.
Bucklers are being referred to almost as the "anti class" and it's beginning to bother me that people can't see how ACTUALLY BALANCED the game is right now. I could argue certain matchups, no doubt, but it is possible to beat fog and other crazy strategies with a PLAN.

I'll go fight a musketeer on my buckler with Goronado Ratbeard and El Toro. Now is that a good team to vs that class? Is that a good "counter" with a "plan" of action to effectively beat a musketeer? Just shedding some light on some factors that might be dismissed in this "dscussion". There are so many factors that go into each and every pvp match (one of them being luck by the way) that I cant even make a decent point without it getting thrown right back at me. Everyone should be a little more open minded, because the slightest tweaks can drastically change the meta (take a look at a central match with nausica banned for example).

i understand the meta, ive beaten you numerous times and have only lost due to pure luck so i think i understand the meta, privy and zeal arent being mentioned cause zeal was nerfed! can you believe it? nerfed! to 3 rounds, so no, no one is mentioning this, muskets with endless bombs is a gear problem, unless you change gear cant really change this, against bucks, fog, knockback bombs, blood flames, summons, numerous counters, dont bunch your companions, aoes wont be a problem then, for fog? uh what do we do? summons scatter so no shield there, fog counters fog, knockbacks counter fog, which usually wont deter a determined buckler since half damage and all and only being available to 1 class, aoes, again smart people dont bunch their companions when against aoes