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PvP Ability Compromise

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Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
Wolf SkullRider on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
Before I respond to this, I want to say that I would consider myself among this "good" tier of swashbucklers. That said, I myself have witnessed my share of ranked matches on test realm, and I'd like to add on to what Alex has stated so far.

Let's say nothing was made PvE ONLY and and this change in battle boards in ranked remained constant. Yes, I'd bucklers would still have the upper hand in most cases, BUT since numerous "counters" to fog (Frozen Tide, Cornering, Stacking Shields/Buffs) have been made basically unreliable IN ranked pvp, I feel this is a COMPLETE and HANDS DOWN shut out to every single other class who does not have this amazing power to use. To be honest, the ONLY viable way to prevent a dead pirate in 2-3 rounds vs a fogged buckler team (Fan Nausica Goro/Keisuke being the big one), is to have a pet with scent 2/3.

Wait, relying on a pet JUST to beat a good buckler??? Yes, it is bizarre AND a roll of the dice if your pet doesn't show up early enough. Also honestly, what good are summons when someone has 5 entire rounds to plan a strike? Yes, you can Hide your pirate, but what good is that overall when your companions are then the ones going to be crushed? In scanerio, A solo Witchdoctor Vs a forted Nausica, critical/agility buffed Fan flanders, and a goat who just happens to have another hide AND heal on his own. Your companions are gone. You can't stack shields anymore, so would it be stretching it to say buckler is indisputably the top class RIGHT NOW going into ranked pvp (WITHOUT doubloons)? I completely disagree, it is a FACT.

All that said, I truly believe there are only ONE way to "fix" this CLEAR unbalance with fog. BANNING BLACK FOG from ranked, with these smaller battle boards and inability to stack shields/Buffs anymore, I think is the obvious route to take. Extreme? Crazy? Any word that describes a huge nerf,?YES, ABSOLUTELY!!! But truthfully, is it THAT extreme a decision? Or shall we listen to more "I got beat by fog" stories first?
Banning fog is not the way to go
Bosun
Feb 25, 2012
329
Ok, lets get a few things straight: We don't want to ban Fog. At least, I don;t think anyone is requesting a ban on it. This thread is here so the community can find a favorable NERF to fog. So please, stop talking about banning it, we don't want that, it won't happen.

However, the only legitimate arguments i have heard against my suggested nerf are:

A) 3 rounds isn't long enough.
B) it's not worth it if it messes up PvE.

Both of these are fair points. Personally, I am fine with Fog being 1.5x damage and lasting 5 rounds, I simply suggested 3 rounds because I prefer to make people move faster. As for messing up PvE...

I don't think it would. PvE at the moment is VERY easy for swashbucklers. (again, I am a swashy, i'm not just talking trash without the experience to back it up) Fog makes it so that in 2 turns, we can take out half our opposing team. Its REALLY not ok. I would honestly say that it is ALMOST as bad as the old Zeal. (remember when that thing lasted 10 turns? sheesh!) so nerfing black fog would add challenge back to where challenge belongs, in my opinion.

Before I go: we have had a ton of discussion on Fog, But very little talk on Summoner's fatigue. what do you guys think of that one? I heard that the 3x3 summons were being nerfed, but i have no idea by how much.
Developer
zuto4011a on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
with the buff update i'm getting steamrolled by people i used to flawless easy, you've had your privateer nerf, we've been nerfed to the ground, nerfed to the point of me wanting to quit, i hope your happy, privateers are no longer the great versatile class we once were, now we're the corner crew
Test Realm is not over.

It is most helpful to provide targeted, specific feedback, so that we can (continue) to make adjustments.

It's your choice whether to contribute meaningfully or not.
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Alex Hawkins on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
Wolf I agree with the first part of your post, but I respectfully disagree with banning Black Fog from ranked PvP. I will repeat something I have said before, banning powers should not be the go to option when KI has the ability to change/nerf them if they are too strong.

It is already very disappointing the path which KI is taking by banning Infernal Wave, Frozen Tide and Blood Flames. All powers that by no means were overpowered at all and gave some classes a little bit of wiggle room to play with. The only ban I understand was the Charm ban BECAUSE they stated it was for a technical reason and how it interacted with the turn system, meaning once they fix that they plan to bring it back to ranked. Aside from technical glitches or bug, no power should be banned imo, instead they should be fixed to be more in line. The only exception to this are Doubloons, but those aren't really powers and more of like a completely different system.

For Black Fog, I honestly believe that a simple reduction from x2 damage buff to x1.5 damage buff would do the trick. What makes it overpowered is that every single companion gets a x2 damage buff on top of their Super Critical card that they use on you. At least the x1.5 nerf would prevent the really high damage from single companions. You will still lose one companion if the Buckler plays it right, but not 2 or your whole pirate the way you can now.

For Moo Robe, another OP power, instead of banning, I think the debuff idea to the summoner that Blixet had should be added. Just like how NovaBlaster reduces the dmg of the caster by 5 turns, maybe summoning the Warriors places a Focus Fire on the caster for 5 turns or just simply remove the Vicious Charges from the Warriors. The scorpions are not OP because they don't have the vicious, that's what makes the Warriors crazy strong even with the stacking debuff update.
When I wrote that I too felt a ban wasn't/isn't necessary at all. I probably just went off the deep end since this honestly just a fiasco now. I've said this before but I'll say it again here. I DON'T believe in banning powers/companions, anything at ones disposal. I feel there is always a way to balance the said power so that it is not the hot topic of basically every single thread I read about "OP" things. I don't believe in banning at all since yes, KI has the ability to nerf these said powers.

Even when I've vs many of the startegies/combos being complained about, I always see that there is a way to win, even if it is a 10 foot climb rather than a step up on a ledge.

Back to fog now, no, I DON'T think a ban should be considered (I lost my level headed-ness for a minute, sorry), but a nerf should definitely be looked into. This particular 1.5 damage as opposed to 2 sounds convincing, but I truly don't know if this will impact the "issues" we are currently facing with fog enough. I am also thinking that maybe other classes should receive buffs to given powers, or SOMETHING that makes them more deadly. Fog is no doubt usually a death sentence for 2-3 units, so why not give privateers more things to help their team resist attacks? Maybe give witches and muskets more options to make them more active than sitting back behind traps/corner strat. I have seen how wizard101 has grown since it's first update past level 50 and YES, VERY different, but it is fairly viable for every class to compete, even though there are the obvious stand outs.

And no offense, but I think it's fair that people put forth an argument to defend their statements tather than saying "this should/shouldn't happen to fog/other powers". If you feel a certain way about about factor of the game BRING IT TO THE TABLE. The more input, the more discussion. The more discussion the better, because threads (like this one in particular) are about making issues known and finding solutions AS A COMMUNITY.
Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
zuto4011a on Jul 9, 2015 wrote:
midnight bandito is easily the best swashbuckler in 1v1 and the only one of his class able to beat me with regular success, i dont believe YOU know how to play buckler if you say its hard, btw if its a 4v4 you have PRIVATEERS to PROTECT you while charging in and dodging nearly every round you arent hidden, please sir, leave the pvp advice to the ones who've dedicated hundreds of hours to it
Okay...if he is the best Swashbuckler and also the only one that can beat you with regular success, what's that tell us? It tells us that only the best Buckler has a chance to beat you. Does that sound balanced to you? It doesn't to me. Is there only one other Privy that can beat you? How about the other classes? Maybe the reason Black Fog is the way it is, is because the class itself was broken and needed something like this to make it competitive.
Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
zuto4011a on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
with the buff update i'm getting steamrolled by people i used to flawless easy, you've had your privateer nerf, we've been nerfed to the ground, nerfed to the point of me wanting to quit, i hope your happy, privateers are no longer the great versatile class we once were, now we're the corner crew
More like you've lost your status as the Kings of PvP. I wouldn't mind as @Alex suggested and reducing the damage Fog adds. You think it's fair that your class gets to have 10 round long Battle Zeal? Your team is practically untouchable and never misses for the entire duration of that card. 3 rounds is plenty long for it.
Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
the midnightpirate on Jul 20, 2015 wrote:
lol if I can beat him when hides could be removed and privy buffs lasted 10 turns that means yes a buckler could beat him with out fog
O_O Impressive, but did you use crowns companions?

If no, I bow to your mastery of PvP. If yes, my point still stands.
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
I don't PvP or have a maxed buckler, & due to my lack of PvP'ism & Swashiness I do apologize if my thoughts &/or suggestions are outright bad, don't make sense or just won't help the cause. But, I do assure you that, as someone who reads & takes interest in every PvP related post, I do at least want to try to help come up with a meaningful compromise that may help other classes without completely hindering bucklers, who deserve the right to their BF & not having it banned from PvP.

So, would something like this help, hurt SB's too much or even be doable w/in the programming?

BF- Remains 5 turn power/buff but becomes a Tiered Buff, meaning:

Turn 1- adjacent units receive x2 damage buff. Every round that passes damage bonus is scaled back, as follows:
Turn 2- x1.8 dmg
Turn 3- x1.6 dmg
Turn 4- x1.4 dmg
Turn 5- x1.2 dmg

With something like this, the Swash still has x2 dmg potential in 1st turn, but has to weigh whether or not to keep units hidden while buffing, or risk losing a bit of 'extra' damage as turns pass by. The crew can still hit hard after casting BF, but more strategy will come into play as they determine when is the right time to come out of hidden to attack. It remains a 5 turn crew-hide, so buffing can go on for 2, 3, or 4 turns but at a risk of losing 'oomph'. Even if waiting until the last turn of hide to attack, crew members will still receive a slight dmg increase. For other classes, by turn 4 they will not take on as much punishment, but will still get hit hard in those 1st, 3 turns.

It's not a banning of BF, not an all out nerf, Swashies still get to be potent & other classes have a better of chance of not receiving 3-4 rounds of buffing, followed by x2 damage. Since most crew buffs are less potent than the single target buff, Black Fog would also fall in line...once the 1st turn is up.

It may bring a bit more strategy to using BF & also make it slightly less 'OP' to other classes & in PvE...maybe? But it would still remain quite potent for PvE.
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jul 22, 2015 wrote:
O_O Impressive, but did you use crowns companions?

If no, I bow to your mastery of PvP. If yes, my point still stands.
Back in Mooshu days I used sub the starter companion for buckler i also used Anne along with bill but this was a long time ago and now there are lots of new companion stats that make this one sound super bad but hey it worked back in mooshu days
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Spiral Cowboy on Jul 21, 2015 wrote:
Okay...if he is the best Swashbuckler and also the only one that can beat you with regular success, what's that tell us? It tells us that only the best Buckler has a chance to beat you. Does that sound balanced to you? It doesn't to me. Is there only one other Privy that can beat you? How about the other classes? Maybe the reason Black Fog is the way it is, is because the class itself was broken and needed something like this to make it competitive.
keep in mind i am the best undisputed privateer at 1v1 so its only natural the very best could beat me, i however am not the best at teams that honor goes to dashing leo ironside, for witches the only one who can beat me with regular success is quentin, muskets is no one, muskets are my specialty, bucks is reckless chris, only the best and craziest of each class can beat the best and craziest of the other classes, the class itself before was weak but now its too strong, some nerf of some magnitude is needed, perhaps a reduce on damage while fogged or a movement penalty
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Jul 21, 2015 wrote:
Test Realm is not over.

It is most helpful to provide targeted, specific feedback, so that we can (continue) to make adjustments.

It's your choice whether to contribute meaningfully or not.
since all my other threads have not been approved i'll try to get this one approved just for you ratbeard

1: forced to corner vs a melee class, regardless of having a fort or not the inability to double fort or fort and va leaves us too open to attacks, a fog or critical chain by bucks will ruin our heath and force us to spam heal leaving our team open, alex hawkins flawlessed me in less then 5 rounds in ranked with his buck, there was a bug involved with fast combat being off that didnt allow me to make a move first turn and that put me at a disadvantage but i dont see how i could have won anyway, i'd need to fort myself then run into the corner taking 2 turns, all he'd need to do is highlands charge, pete whale, then rush and kill 2, leaving my class with only 1/3 of its attacking power overall without ranked teams i dont see a place for privateer in this current meta

2: being unable to win against a decent foe without op gear, there are 2 swashbucklers out of my few matches that i only won due to pure luck in the last rounds, i was killed by the buckler who had near full health then baar got a full critical chain for the win, the other lucas kidd didnt get an attack to finish me off, goro with his new zeal saved the day, before the privateer could carry his team when they, ive done it and its be done to me before, me carrying my dead team vs a full health goro and full health privy, and being beaten with all 3 companions in the green with just me dead by a half health privateer, our carrying ability seems greatly reduced along with our overall teams damage output which needs to be high to make up for our support pirate

3: the shortened maps give us little prep time not allowing to make the 3vs4 battle even, i can only support so much and not being able to stack espirit and zeal buys me even less time to buff

4: its safe to say the support class was hit the hardest with this PVP ONLY buff nerf, that alone should be enough of a red flag
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
ShadowStrikerV2 on Jul 21, 2015 wrote:
More like you've lost your status as the Kings of PvP. I wouldn't mind as @Alex suggested and reducing the damage Fog adds. You think it's fair that your class gets to have 10 round long Battle Zeal? Your team is practically untouchable and never misses for the entire duration of that card. 3 rounds is plenty long for it.
this was gone a long time ago i dont see the reason for bringing this back up at all
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Jul 22, 2015 wrote:
I don't PvP or have a maxed buckler, & due to my lack of PvP'ism & Swashiness I do apologize if my thoughts &/or suggestions are outright bad, don't make sense or just won't help the cause. But, I do assure you that, as someone who reads & takes interest in every PvP related post, I do at least want to try to help come up with a meaningful compromise that may help other classes without completely hindering bucklers, who deserve the right to their BF & not having it banned from PvP.

So, would something like this help, hurt SB's too much or even be doable w/in the programming?

BF- Remains 5 turn power/buff but becomes a Tiered Buff, meaning:

Turn 1- adjacent units receive x2 damage buff. Every round that passes damage bonus is scaled back, as follows:
Turn 2- x1.8 dmg
Turn 3- x1.6 dmg
Turn 4- x1.4 dmg
Turn 5- x1.2 dmg

With something like this, the Swash still has x2 dmg potential in 1st turn, but has to weigh whether or not to keep units hidden while buffing, or risk losing a bit of 'extra' damage as turns pass by. The crew can still hit hard after casting BF, but more strategy will come into play as they determine when is the right time to come out of hidden to attack. It remains a 5 turn crew-hide, so buffing can go on for 2, 3, or 4 turns but at a risk of losing 'oomph'. Even if waiting until the last turn of hide to attack, crew members will still receive a slight dmg increase. For other classes, by turn 4 they will not take on as much punishment, but will still get hit hard in those 1st, 3 turns.

It's not a banning of BF, not an all out nerf, Swashies still get to be potent & other classes have a better of chance of not receiving 3-4 rounds of buffing, followed by x2 damage. Since most crew buffs are less potent than the single target buff, Black Fog would also fall in line...once the 1st turn is up.

It may bring a bit more strategy to using BF & also make it slightly less 'OP' to other classes & in PvE...maybe? But it would still remain quite potent for PvE.
Maybe something like this could take care of that 'fixing, with one bullet'...perhaps. Ratbeard once stated,

"To sum up, you can all (PvP and PvE) be confident that if it is going to change at all, it will be done to minimize the impact on PvE players, that any "fix" actually addresses actual balance issues with the power, and (hopefully) it will be done with one bullet."

A tiered, damage-reduction approach, would possibly satisfy most of the parameters that would qualify for some sort of change to Black Fog. It wouldn't negatively affect PvE too much-- even if it did slightly, many already say that soloing the game as a Swashbuckler (once Black Fog is obtained) is easy. It wouldn't require any changes being made to other classes' powers/talents. It would remain 5 turns, would still give 2x damage potential in that 1st turn, would make surviving a 5-turn crew-hide quite possible for other classes & would also achieve that 3-turn, x1.5 damage that a lot of PvP players were asking for. On turn 3, the crew would have x1.6 damage & if they remain hidden for the other turn(s) they will still be able to buff, but will lose extra damage. Also it would be a 'natural' counter to BF, for all classes, as it would make dealing with BF's potency a more manageable thing to combat. It may even mix up strategies a bit for both sides...for the SB crew, they will have to weigh the importance of extra rounds of buffing/movement vs. losing some damage. And for the opposition they will have to try to 'guess' when that SB is going to decide to 'wake up' from that 'waiting game'. Extreme movement companions, like Goro & Nausica, will still be able to hit in that 1st, x2 damage range & companions like Fan could reach their targets in 2 rounds with x1.8 damage, if the SB chooses to do so.

Waiting out 4 turns of buffing & still being hit by x2 damage from 4 units, would be less devastating with an approach like this and require only a tweak to the power/buff itself...again, perhaps?!?
Petty Officer
Nov 21, 2012
96
zuto4011a on Jul 22, 2015 wrote:
this was gone a long time ago i dont see the reason for bringing this back up at all
If you can't recall, you brought it back up.

"you've had your privateer nerf, we've been nerfed to the ground, nerfed to the point of me wanting to quit, i hope your happy, privateers are no longer the great versatile class we once were, now we're the corner crew"
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Wolf SkullRider on Jul 21, 2015 wrote:
When I wrote that I too felt a ban wasn't/isn't necessary at all. I probably just went off the deep end since this honestly just a fiasco now. I've said this before but I'll say it again here. I DON'T believe in banning powers/companions, anything at ones disposal. I feel there is always a way to balance the said power so that it is not the hot topic of basically every single thread I read about "OP" things. I don't believe in banning at all since yes, KI has the ability to nerf these said powers.

Even when I've vs many of the startegies/combos being complained about, I always see that there is a way to win, even if it is a 10 foot climb rather than a step up on a ledge.

Back to fog now, no, I DON'T think a ban should be considered (I lost my level headed-ness for a minute, sorry), but a nerf should definitely be looked into. This particular 1.5 damage as opposed to 2 sounds convincing, but I truly don't know if this will impact the "issues" we are currently facing with fog enough. I am also thinking that maybe other classes should receive buffs to given powers, or SOMETHING that makes them more deadly. Fog is no doubt usually a death sentence for 2-3 units, so why not give privateers more things to help their team resist attacks? Maybe give witches and muskets more options to make them more active than sitting back behind traps/corner strat. I have seen how wizard101 has grown since it's first update past level 50 and YES, VERY different, but it is fairly viable for every class to compete, even though there are the obvious stand outs.

And no offense, but I think it's fair that people put forth an argument to defend their statements tather than saying "this should/shouldn't happen to fog/other powers". If you feel a certain way about about factor of the game BRING IT TO THE TABLE. The more input, the more discussion. The more discussion the better, because threads (like this one in particular) are about making issues known and finding solutions AS A COMMUNITY.
Personally from my experience doing ranked on test as a privateer to me the problem isn't the damage it's the inability to do anything but defend against black fog. Then again I have 5 Forts I can't even imagine how hard the other classes must be having it if they can't shield as freely as me x_x and even then I will always lose 1-2 companions after fog and no the corner strategy doesn't work against someone with sprocket key they will jsut remove your shields and one shot you. Only running works and when you run instead of forting you will always lose 1-2 companions who you can't shield cause you have to get away from the enemy swash before he kills you >_< things may be better if my companion could do some damage or use their epics or something instead of me going (I have to fort nausica cause she's more useful than my Ratbeard or say Marchioness) like fog literally makes me offer one of my companions who in the end wont even get a chance to attack. No matter what strategy I use it will be a -1 or -2 companions I get that big guns does decent damage but that only works 1st turn after that they can spread out and if i drew all 5 of my big guns and used them on 1 companion it still wouldn't kill and the companion would still get to attack and serve its purpose.
Petty Officer
Jan 03, 2010
95
Sunny Wolf on Jul 24, 2015 wrote:
Personally from my experience doing ranked on test as a privateer to me the problem isn't the damage it's the inability to do anything but defend against black fog. Then again I have 5 Forts I can't even imagine how hard the other classes must be having it if they can't shield as freely as me x_x and even then I will always lose 1-2 companions after fog and no the corner strategy doesn't work against someone with sprocket key they will jsut remove your shields and one shot you. Only running works and when you run instead of forting you will always lose 1-2 companions who you can't shield cause you have to get away from the enemy swash before he kills you >_< things may be better if my companion could do some damage or use their epics or something instead of me going (I have to fort nausica cause she's more useful than my Ratbeard or say Marchioness) like fog literally makes me offer one of my companions who in the end wont even get a chance to attack. No matter what strategy I use it will be a -1 or -2 companions I get that big guns does decent damage but that only works 1st turn after that they can spread out and if i drew all 5 of my big guns and used them on 1 companion it still wouldn't kill and the companion would still get to attack and serve its purpose.
Yes, I completely agree. I was talking from such a point that it was basically a given that Black Fog is unavoidable in Ranked PvP. The small battle boards and an entire 5 rounds to move, the only class that has given be trouble (besides other bucklers, a different topic) is musketeers with their bombs (knockback ones are really deadly) and early sniper shots (from chantal of course). It comes down to where I have to hold my pirate back a lot just to "regroup", by which time I usually have 2 companions down. But then again, this is one class's way to "deal with" black fog. Unless you have summons that get in the way, it is basically a game of "who do I need most if I want to win", though it is quite rare when at least fogged 2 units aren't getting across to hit a solid 2 units dead/useless. The fact that it is possibly impossible to avoid when used right is what makes this power shine in the first place, then you add on 2-3 dead/severely hurt units and you have yourself countless threads and posts about how a certain power needs to be hammered with nerfs. I'd say that's pretty accurate, yes?
Ensign
Dec 03, 2012
3
A lot of good points made here. to be honest, i like black fog the way it is. it is a challenge to defend against it in PvP (i like challenges), but isn't impossibly hard, as some people think. I have a max witchdoctor and privateer and both are fairly easy, what with gunnery, artillery and the big guns for privateer and all the multi hit ones for witchdoctor that can hit untargetable ones anyway (it's wonderful!). i imagine buccaneer could do well with it's vengeance strike, and musketeer with it's bombs (those things are annoying!). i like the black fog the way it is. yell at me all you want, it won't change my opinion.
cheers, Jerry123458
lvl65
lvl65
lvl9(yay!)
Bosun
Feb 25, 2012
329
jerry123458 on Jul 26, 2015 wrote:
A lot of good points made here. to be honest, i like black fog the way it is. it is a challenge to defend against it in PvP (i like challenges), but isn't impossibly hard, as some people think. I have a max witchdoctor and privateer and both are fairly easy, what with gunnery, artillery and the big guns for privateer and all the multi hit ones for witchdoctor that can hit untargetable ones anyway (it's wonderful!). i imagine buccaneer could do well with it's vengeance strike, and musketeer with it's bombs (those things are annoying!). i like the black fog the way it is. yell at me all you want, it won't change my opinion.
cheers, Jerry123458
lvl65
lvl65
lvl9(yay!)
First, I just want to say: going into a debate with the mindset of 'I won't change my opinion' makes the whole point of having a debate... pointless. In any case, I'll give it my best to change your mind.

First, those bombs aren't nearly as effective as you would think. Even if they put the whole enemy team at 3/4 health, which would be insane, the buckler can still absolutely smash half their team. You can shield your crew, but the buckler can just buff and wait out the shield, or attack an un-shielded unit.

Second, For Witches... yeah. This is the one class I will call 'reasonably' prepared to counter fog. Even so, a buckler can still really destroy a witch. Their fragile, and bucklers can easily destroy them by turn 3.

Muskets do have some counter... but the buckler can usually just bypass the bombs or walk through them. remember, bucklers have alert which greatly reduces the damage they take from traps. the knockback bombs are a gamble: they don't always work, and even if they do it is a 1 turn delay at best.

Buccaneer countering with Vengeance strike? Nope. Swashies have that high dodge, a vengeance strike will inevitably turn into riposte+first strike chains, wrecking the buck even further. the buck can shield, but even then the buckler can demolish the buck's crew. Buck's generally have no chance against a Buckler, with literally no counter available at all.

The only 'reliable' way for every class to counter fog is training a pet with scent. But really, how can you justify making pirates train pets JUST to combat a single power? for that matter, pets are a gamble too: they don't always show up...

I hope this didn't come off as rude or condescending: that was not my intention. It's just that I believe the only way we will be able to convince KI to make the changes that I and so many others believe necessary is by overwhelming majority opinion.

Matthew Walker,
65 (yup, I main as Buckler and I feel fog needs to be nerfed)
65
65
65
50
Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Blixet on Jul 27, 2015 wrote:
First, I just want to say: going into a debate with the mindset of 'I won't change my opinion' makes the whole point of having a debate... pointless. In any case, I'll give it my best to change your mind.

First, those bombs aren't nearly as effective as you would think. Even if they put the whole enemy team at 3/4 health, which would be insane, the buckler can still absolutely smash half their team. You can shield your crew, but the buckler can just buff and wait out the shield, or attack an un-shielded unit.

Second, For Witches... yeah. This is the one class I will call 'reasonably' prepared to counter fog. Even so, a buckler can still really destroy a witch. Their fragile, and bucklers can easily destroy them by turn 3.

Muskets do have some counter... but the buckler can usually just bypass the bombs or walk through them. remember, bucklers have alert which greatly reduces the damage they take from traps. the knockback bombs are a gamble: they don't always work, and even if they do it is a 1 turn delay at best.

Buccaneer countering with Vengeance strike? Nope. Swashies have that high dodge, a vengeance strike will inevitably turn into riposte+first strike chains, wrecking the buck even further. the buck can shield, but even then the buckler can demolish the buck's crew. Buck's generally have no chance against a Buckler, with literally no counter available at all.

The only 'reliable' way for every class to counter fog is training a pet with scent. But really, how can you justify making pirates train pets JUST to combat a single power? for that matter, pets are a gamble too: they don't always show up...

I hope this didn't come off as rude or condescending: that was not my intention. It's just that I believe the only way we will be able to convince KI to make the changes that I and so many others believe necessary is by overwhelming majority opinion.

Matthew Walker,
65 (yup, I main as Buckler and I feel fog needs to be nerfed)
65
65
65
50
OK! First of all stop pointing out just swashbucklers strengths! Swashbucklers aren't the "MWAHAHAHA I fogged now I win! crown your new king!" thing. Swashbucklers are something of a heavy damage/specialist class, and they are NOT the only contender for pvp. Swashbuckler, they have, hide its a 5 round defense against directly aimed attacks, its still completely vulnerable to aoe's and some dot's, second of all 2x "damage" its really weapon power which is completely different, and basically what if they just used too assassin instead of one? that would deal more damage and secondly the only reason 2x weapon power can be effective is if its used on a heavy damage power, a swashbuckler doing this is like a buck with leviathan on starting vengeance strike chains. And don't ever say one class is more op than the other! Swashbucklers have high dodge oh no riposte chains! that's because they actually improve there dodge! why don't bucks improve there accuracy? That's a counter that ruins riposte, secondly BUT ELUSIVE! well bucks get tide and actually elusive isn't free! so why not get elusive on your buck so if yu get caught in a chain it doesn't last too long. And "Fog" is on par with highland charge, why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick! Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then? It is one of the unique stats of that class! Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain or I don't know use some powers and don't stand there, throw a purge ruin their buffs, use zeal ruin relentless chains, or use knock back bombs to ruin their attack period.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
Bosun
Feb 25, 2012
329
Quite Jacques on Jul 29, 2015 wrote:
OK! First of all stop pointing out just swashbucklers strengths! Swashbucklers aren't the "MWAHAHAHA I fogged now I win! crown your new king!" thing. Swashbucklers are something of a heavy damage/specialist class, and they are NOT the only contender for pvp. Swashbuckler, they have, hide its a 5 round defense against directly aimed attacks, its still completely vulnerable to aoe's and some dot's, second of all 2x "damage" its really weapon power which is completely different, and basically what if they just used too assassin instead of one? that would deal more damage and secondly the only reason 2x weapon power can be effective is if its used on a heavy damage power, a swashbuckler doing this is like a buck with leviathan on starting vengeance strike chains. And don't ever say one class is more op than the other! Swashbucklers have high dodge oh no riposte chains! that's because they actually improve there dodge! why don't bucks improve there accuracy? That's a counter that ruins riposte, secondly BUT ELUSIVE! well bucks get tide and actually elusive isn't free! so why not get elusive on your buck so if yu get caught in a chain it doesn't last too long. And "Fog" is on par with highland charge, why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick! Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then? It is one of the unique stats of that class! Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain or I don't know use some powers and don't stand there, throw a purge ruin their buffs, use zeal ruin relentless chains, or use knock back bombs to ruin their attack period.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
I dont want this thread to turn hostile, so I'm going to keep my response as emotionally sterile as i can. That said, I will not shy away from disagreeing with you. So... here goes:

Swashbucklers aren't the "MWAHAHAHA I fogged now I win! crown your new king!" thing.
You're right, they aren't. I never suggested that they were. Please don't make this something that it isn't.

Swashbuckler, they have, hide its a 5 round defense against directly aimed attacks, its still completely vulnerable to aoe's and some dot's.
I agree! fog is pretty much the best shield in the game. It doesn't reduce damage though, and a witch can still Mojo AoE and kick some butt. I actually specifically mentioned that. Musket Bombs are also super effective, and barrage is nothing to scoff at. Unfortunately, Buccaneers don't get a true AoE, and any other class power they get from gear or train simply won't be effective.

2x "damage" its really weapon power which is completely different.
you're mostly right, i used the word 'damage' as a 'shortcut' to convenience myself. I will refrain from doing so in the future. However, weapon power is the primary factor of total damage, so...

the only reason 2x weapon power can be effective is if its used on a heavy damage power,
why on earth would any buckler not exit fog with a super strike or an assasin's strike, if the option was available? additionally, 2x weapon power is only half the deal: lets not forget five turns of tantamount invulnerability to buff/shield/taunt you're enemies. "Hah! I used Fog! Now I Win! Crown your King!"

why don't bucks improve there accuracy? That's a counter that ruins riposte, secondly BUT ELUSIVE! well bucks get tide and actually elusive isn't free! so why not get elusive on your buck so if you get caught in a chain it doesn't last too long.

CONTINUED:
Bosun
Feb 25, 2012
329
Quite Jacques on Jul 29, 2015 wrote:
OK! First of all stop pointing out just swashbucklers strengths! Swashbucklers aren't the "MWAHAHAHA I fogged now I win! crown your new king!" thing. Swashbucklers are something of a heavy damage/specialist class, and they are NOT the only contender for pvp. Swashbuckler, they have, hide its a 5 round defense against directly aimed attacks, its still completely vulnerable to aoe's and some dot's, second of all 2x "damage" its really weapon power which is completely different, and basically what if they just used too assassin instead of one? that would deal more damage and secondly the only reason 2x weapon power can be effective is if its used on a heavy damage power, a swashbuckler doing this is like a buck with leviathan on starting vengeance strike chains. And don't ever say one class is more op than the other! Swashbucklers have high dodge oh no riposte chains! that's because they actually improve there dodge! why don't bucks improve there accuracy? That's a counter that ruins riposte, secondly BUT ELUSIVE! well bucks get tide and actually elusive isn't free! so why not get elusive on your buck so if yu get caught in a chain it doesn't last too long. And "Fog" is on par with highland charge, why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick! Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then? It is one of the unique stats of that class! Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain or I don't know use some powers and don't stand there, throw a purge ruin their buffs, use zeal ruin relentless chains, or use knock back bombs to ruin their attack period.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
CONTINUED:

swashies simply have higher dodge than a buck has accuracy. I have some pretty decent gear for my buck, and I can regularly hit just about anything in the game except for a buck who specializes in dodge. Did I say this was an issue? why, as a matter of fact, I did not! Swashies are fragile! they NEED that dodge to stay alive! the point I made was to point out that a buck getting good chains on a swash PROBABLY would not, and should not, happen. I did not make this point to complain about that particular facet of PvP... I made that point to reject any false notions that a buck can easily chain on a buckler.

"Fog" is on par with highland charge.
No. No it is not. Unless i am mistaken, charge lasts 2 rounds, and supplies the team with x2 movement range. Fog lasts five turns, and provides the whole team with x2 weapon power and doubles as the best shield in the game. The Idea that these 2 powers are on par is blatantly false and I request that you do not suggest that elsewhere.

why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick!
... what?

Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then?
I would if i could but i can't so i shan't. that turn one freeze, man! no charging here. additionally, if the buckler can get fog right after being charged then they will STILL punish the charge by wiping out half your team.

Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain
great, the captain survives. half the crew doesn't.

throw a purge ruin their buffs
great, their buffs are gone. so are mine, and they still have time to re-buff and deliver that MASSIVE hit.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
DON'T APOLOGIZE! you express your thoughts, i express mine. as for the balance... I think its broken, and I am trying to fix it. communication is key.
Lieutenant
Oct 11, 2012
108
Has anyone thought about other 'classes' facing each other besides Swashbucklers ? Maybe we should focus more on strategies that no-one has thought of yet (i.e. Musket vs. Privateer). Having different opinions is human, so lets try to focus on a more constructive point than debating about something that might not be changed. You all have brought up valid points here, but I feel like none of you are compromising with each other as the title of the thread indicates. Just putting my thoughts out there.

-James Underwood
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Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Blixet on Aug 1, 2015 wrote:
CONTINUED:

swashies simply have higher dodge than a buck has accuracy. I have some pretty decent gear for my buck, and I can regularly hit just about anything in the game except for a buck who specializes in dodge. Did I say this was an issue? why, as a matter of fact, I did not! Swashies are fragile! they NEED that dodge to stay alive! the point I made was to point out that a buck getting good chains on a swash PROBABLY would not, and should not, happen. I did not make this point to complain about that particular facet of PvP... I made that point to reject any false notions that a buck can easily chain on a buckler.

"Fog" is on par with highland charge.
No. No it is not. Unless i am mistaken, charge lasts 2 rounds, and supplies the team with x2 movement range. Fog lasts five turns, and provides the whole team with x2 weapon power and doubles as the best shield in the game. The Idea that these 2 powers are on par is blatantly false and I request that you do not suggest that elsewhere.

why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick!
... what?

Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then?
I would if i could but i can't so i shan't. that turn one freeze, man! no charging here. additionally, if the buckler can get fog right after being charged then they will STILL punish the charge by wiping out half your team.

Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain
great, the captain survives. half the crew doesn't.

throw a purge ruin their buffs
great, their buffs are gone. so are mine, and they still have time to re-buff and deliver that MASSIVE hit.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
DON'T APOLOGIZE! you express your thoughts, i express mine. as for the balance... I think its broken, and I am trying to fix it. communication is key.
Tide 2 is designed to counter riposte, and let me say a buckler base dodge with talents not including gear is 135 a buck accuracy 105 your right bucklers have high dodge but really that's the point of the class which you agree on so if a buck with tide has 130+ accuracy not including gear then generally if neither improved accuracy the buckler will dodge 1/4 but since pretty much every decent buckler uses dodge boots or something of course that will tilt it. WOW fog is the best shield? Its designed as a counter to bucks as mojo storm is basically a counter to hide. And really best of them all? My buckler has more valors than hides XD. And let me say since a buckler is weak without a fort doesn't that suggest a buck should get a hide? I have countless buck friends who wear hide shoes train hide and abuse it. And another thing to think of is since hide protects you until you hit and valor keeps going on till it times out, not to mention hide isn't stackable, I think its safe to say hide is on par with a valor fort or leviathan call, and of course some situation its better and some its not. In fact more often then not leviathan is way more effective than hide Generally bucklers will die before using all there hides if they don't have shields of any sort, and I admit atm fog is pretty powerful and indeed a minor way of toning it down but not perhaps as a damage reduction or a time reduce, could be helpful. Perhaps make it so you can't stack agility/strength/will buffs with it? And really I think in test hide is becoming broken as you can't put a leviathan on while hidden x. x I think losing the ability to stack shields while hidden will really bring it down and hopefully test changes that x. o but yes fog atm is fairly powerful and perhaps in test realm when you can't stack same type of powers, they will consider fog as offensive so you can use shields, and I believe no fan's cloud will be just the perfect thing to balance it that will really change it to.... \/
Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Blixet on Aug 1, 2015 wrote:
CONTINUED:

swashies simply have higher dodge than a buck has accuracy. I have some pretty decent gear for my buck, and I can regularly hit just about anything in the game except for a buck who specializes in dodge. Did I say this was an issue? why, as a matter of fact, I did not! Swashies are fragile! they NEED that dodge to stay alive! the point I made was to point out that a buck getting good chains on a swash PROBABLY would not, and should not, happen. I did not make this point to complain about that particular facet of PvP... I made that point to reject any false notions that a buck can easily chain on a buckler.

"Fog" is on par with highland charge.
No. No it is not. Unless i am mistaken, charge lasts 2 rounds, and supplies the team with x2 movement range. Fog lasts five turns, and provides the whole team with x2 weapon power and doubles as the best shield in the game. The Idea that these 2 powers are on par is blatantly false and I request that you do not suggest that elsewhere.

why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick!
... what?

Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then?
I would if i could but i can't so i shan't. that turn one freeze, man! no charging here. additionally, if the buckler can get fog right after being charged then they will STILL punish the charge by wiping out half your team.

Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain
great, the captain survives. half the crew doesn't.

throw a purge ruin their buffs
great, their buffs are gone. so are mine, and they still have time to re-buff and deliver that MASSIVE hit.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
DON'T APOLOGIZE! you express your thoughts, i express mine. as for the balance... I think its broken, and I am trying to fix it. communication is key.
A more of a will I instead prefer higher relentless chains or more damage on one particular hit? Why maybe even no spirit while in fog will be a good idea because other than Toro's spirit in fog he's really useless, and yes if a buckler uses both cloud and fog and spirit that is op and I'm afraid to say its a really easy and effective stack that takes little to no skill. because frankly I think this standard buckler team of Toro fan and Bonnie/Sarah/Goat is often an effective team with not nearly as much planning as a full blown buck charge and not to mention the fact cloud can be thrown with spirit in one round is making it a little much, because atm I believe fog is in a position where its tilted not excessively but tilted none the less and shortening it would completely ruin it as would reducing damage effect. And I do believe highland is on par with fog though it does last shorter and hopefully it might be changed to 3 rounds? It is a power designed to charge at defensive opponents privy/witch/musket in one round with out having to leave your companions vulnerable to range units in the process of moving on wards. And the shorter time is the same reason Pete has whale instead of shark, bucks charge. And another thing to point out is bucks aren't strictly offensive, on of the reasons bucks are so powerful is they can choose offensive or defensive and play both efficiently half/half on both while other classes are tilted to one side. And "Hide" is countered by itself or a shield as shield is countered by itself or a hide. And in extreme pvp situations I really doubt you'd use highland x2 distance on the last round if it lasted that long, just more time to prepare for the buck onslaught and another thing in the matter of buckler vs. buck, strength effects accuracy as does each prime effects a different class's accuracy as a buck taking advantage of high strength is something only you can do a major factor people rarely point to is bucks are the ONLY.. \/
Lieutenant
Oct 21, 2012
143
Blixet on Aug 1, 2015 wrote:
CONTINUED:

swashies simply have higher dodge than a buck has accuracy. I have some pretty decent gear for my buck, and I can regularly hit just about anything in the game except for a buck who specializes in dodge. Did I say this was an issue? why, as a matter of fact, I did not! Swashies are fragile! they NEED that dodge to stay alive! the point I made was to point out that a buck getting good chains on a swash PROBABLY would not, and should not, happen. I did not make this point to complain about that particular facet of PvP... I made that point to reject any false notions that a buck can easily chain on a buckler.

"Fog" is on par with highland charge.
No. No it is not. Unless i am mistaken, charge lasts 2 rounds, and supplies the team with x2 movement range. Fog lasts five turns, and provides the whole team with x2 weapon power and doubles as the best shield in the game. The Idea that these 2 powers are on par is blatantly false and I request that you do not suggest that elsewhere.

why if as buckler fogged you could just play the game of walk away and they can't stay as a group, secondly oh no they are gonna go fan toro and who ever else oh they move too quick!
... what?

Why not go Barnabus and pete and charge early on then?
I would if i could but i can't so i shan't. that turn one freeze, man! no charging here. additionally, if the buckler can get fog right after being charged then they will STILL punish the charge by wiping out half your team.

Privy? Musket? Witch? Why not use the corner trick so they can't touch your captain
great, the captain survives. half the crew doesn't.

throw a purge ruin their buffs
great, their buffs are gone. so are mine, and they still have time to re-buff and deliver that MASSIVE hit.

Sorry if I seem tense about this I can't stand people wanting to tip the balance.
DON'T APOLOGIZE! you express your thoughts, i express mine. as for the balance... I think its broken, and I am trying to fix it. communication is key.
.. ONLY class to have strength as their highest prime naturally if you have 100 strength you will get a bonus 10% critical boost on Swashbucklers and Privateers and a whopping 20% on Musketeers and Witches not adding into account strength buffs which can toss a wow 25% on any class really and best of all valuable gear slots aren't being wasted. that's a 1/4 chance of hitting and while you hit deal loads more damage plus a blade storm. And another thing Tide 3 and Elusive 3 makes a combo almost impossible to hit naturally I've seen just simply Tide 3 ruin Swashbuckler chains because generally the only accuracy we get is trained or from sprocket key giving us 118 accuracy vs. 175+ using stated combo on buck. But yes I admit at the moment Fog is powerful and I think the only thing needed to balance it is no agility/strength/will buffs while it is active and in test no leviathan while in use drastically breaks the class swashbuckler.
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