Serpent10611 on May 12, 2014 wrote:

I'm making this thread so I can discuss with everyone my theory, or plot idea at least, of what could be behind the Armada. I started discussing this in Blind Mew's Musings 5 (starting halfway down page 7) and I've gotten much feedback from several other players. I wish to continue the debate here and welcome any polite revisions or add-on's as we see fit. Here's my original post, which began as a more logical attempt at getting a clockwork companion but ended up as a debate over the plot as a whole:
"It was already said that the Valencians lost control of the armada, but there's not much to confirm or deny the possibility of someone else gaining control. The clockworks were made to defeat Napoleguin and end the Polarian war, so it wouldn't be a surprise that someone from Polaris, perhaps someone that worked alongside Napoleguin, would want revenge. I know you're a bit of a history buff Mew, so you probably know about Otto Van Bismark and how he went against the kaiser's orders to create Germany. In the P101 version, Beaksmark could have also been a great military general. But Napoleguin, being the self-centered emperor "pain"-guin that he is, probably took credit for his plans; just like he did with Catbeard. At the end of the war, Beaksmark could have secretly taken control of the armada to exact his revenge on Napoleguin, and after the war ended, he used them to create what he thought would be a better Spiral. My thoughts are that at the end of the story arc, after we battle Kane and the other elites for the final time, the PC could defeat Beaksmark and take the master control from him. The PC could then be able to control the elites and command at least one of them to work for them.
So, that's my idea. Please give me feedback, Mew. I might just as willingly accept being able to fly an armada ship, or at least have more nutcracker companions, but PLEASE consider my plot suggestion to its fullest potential before you make your final judgement."

My view of the Armada is quite different, so this should be an interesting conversation. I believe that the elites have gained self-awareness, and therefore a sense of DESTINY. They don't need someone to control them or order them; Kane is the military genius behind Napoleguin's defeat ( really, how smart do you need to be to beat him? lol ).

anecorbie on May 13, 2014 wrote:

My view of the Armada is quite different, so this should be an interesting conversation. I believe that the elites have gained self-awareness, and therefore a sense of DESTINY. They don't need someone to control them or order them; Kane is the military genius behind Napoleguin's defeat ( really, how smart do you need to be to beat him? lol ).

Can't say I'm surprised that I'd immediately get this sort of "counter-attack", again. Very well.
We still know very little about the inner workings of the Armada, so anything we come up with is mere speculation until the next few books go live. The Armada may be self-aware, but that doesn't mean there couldn't be a greater threat who's using them as, quoting Deacon, "the perfect tool to further my efforts". As for the extent of their artificial intelligence, I highly doubt they're without influence from someone else. Their computer brains, the elites as well, are only programmed for evaluating current events, pursuing a task relentlessly, and negotiating (or lack there of) with other beings. Plus, the Armada seems to have a highly arrogant personality and regularly boasts its superiority, almost to Napoleguin's extent, suggesting that someone who may have worked with him or perhaps a rival could definitely be pulling their strings. (I mean they are PUPPETS after all)
My idea was discussed in a lot more depth in Story Thread 5, so look there for what's already been covered. (starts halfway down page 7)

Melody Fisher on May 15, 2014 wrote:

I really like your idea of including "Beaksmark." I do not, however, believe that he would be Polarian. Most worlds have some type of bird native to them, so Beaksmark could come from a German type world. Maybe a small power who is trying to become important in the spiral, much like Germany around the time of the industrial revolution. Beaksmark could be a military genius and a valuable ally to the player, but I doubt he would be in command of the Armada. Further more, I also get the sense the Armada is somewhat self aware. The Valencians have lost control of their creations, who have turned on Valencia and on the spiral to remodel it the image the Armada sees best. The Armada isn't really a puppet army any more.

I see where you're coming from, but he could definitely still be Polarian. It's like in Cool Ranch: one skyway is dominated by the bison, one by the horses,frogorales, and banditoads, and the rest by the birds. Beaksmark doesn't have to be a penguin, but a puffin instead. In Polaris, one skyway could be dominated by the Russian polar bears and walruses, one by the French penguins, and one by the German puffins. As for the Armada, they might have been self aware at first, but their programming may have been hacked shortly after the war. Like I said in my original post, the real Bismarck disobeyed the Kaiser's orders to create Germany. Beaksmark, whether he was a rival of Napoleguin or a military tactician whose strategies Napoleguin took credit for, could have gained King Casimir's trust by revealing Napoleguin's weak points. After seeing the Armada's strength and power, Beaksmark betrayed Casimir by hacking the Armada's programming and used them to remodel the Spiral to his own interests. The plot provides at least some historical reference and gives them a much more logical motive than the "just evil" excuse.

Melody Fisher on May 15, 2014 wrote:

I really like your idea of including "Beaksmark." I do not, however, believe that he would be Polarian. Most worlds have some type of bird native to them, so Beaksmark could come from a German type world. Maybe a small power who is trying to become important in the spiral, much like Germany around the time of the industrial revolution. Beaksmark could be a military genius and a valuable ally to the player, but I doubt he would be in command of the Armada. Further more, I also get the sense the Armada is somewhat self aware. The Valencians have lost control of their creations, who have turned on Valencia and on the spiral to remodel it the image the Armada sees best. The Armada isn't really a puppet army any more.

Just going to come out of hiding and say that since it's creation, Germany was already a great power. In fact, it's predecessor, Prussia, was admitted to having the most powerful army in Europe.

MarleybonePatriot on May 15, 2014 wrote:

Just going to come out of hiding and say that since it's creation, Germany was already a great power. In fact, it's predecessor, Prussia, was admitted to having the most powerful army in Europe.

Yes, since its creation as a nation state. However, before Germany was a nation state, it was really just a small collection of kingdoms, most of which were not really very powerful in the grand scheme of things. Prussia was not Germany, though it was very powerful and it would make since to have a Prussian army that fought Napoleguin. Bismark was the man who united Germany into a world power, so it would make sense for him to come from, say, the Prussian skyway in a Germanic world rather than Polaris.

Serpent10611 on May 16, 2014 wrote:

Relax, I know I'm NOT any better than any one else and I never once thought I was. That 'counter-attack' statement was a shallow joke on my part because it felt like a bombardment of negative questioning when I first introduced the idea in Mew's Musings. I'm sincerely sorry that my comment offended you, I guess I just got tired of people just disapproving of my idea without considering the full potential it has to offer. And yes, it would definitely be a surprise to find a greater threat behind the Armada.

Apology accepted, yes I remember those posts and how they got a nasty edge to them.

Melody Fisher on May 16, 2014 wrote:

Yes, since its creation as a nation state. However, before Germany was a nation state, it was really just a small collection of kingdoms, most of which were not really very powerful in the grand scheme of things. Prussia was not Germany, though it was very powerful and it would make since to have a Prussian army that fought Napoleguin. Bismark was the man who united Germany into a world power, so it would make sense for him to come from, say, the Prussian skyway in a Germanic world rather than Polaris.

Before I begin, I must say that, although I am aware that Germany was both a political idea and an area, I thought that the poster I quoted was referring to Germany as a nation state.
And yes, I am aware of Germany's political map before the unification, riddled with arch-duchies and kingdoms, Bavaria and Saxony being examples.
Indeed, Prussia was not Germany. How, it is globally referred to as the political predecessor of Germany, since Prussia both formed the NGC and the German Empire.

Now, for a Prussian skyway to exist, wouldn't we also need an Austrian, Hungarian, Danish, and possibly bavarian skyway?

Serpent10611 on May 16, 2014 wrote:

I like your companion suggestions, and an interesting plot twist regarding the Toymaker. While that is possible that he could have turned evil, I have my own theory for his back-story:
The Toymaker was the original creator of the Armada. After the war ended, at which point Beaksmark has gained control, Beaksmark imprisons the Toymaker or keeps him under house arrest and forces him to continue making Armada soldiers; or perhaps he has gone into hiding. During this time, he begins building the clockwork birds as an SOS. The inscriptions on the birds' gears could be a message for wear to find him and/or a warning of what is really going on in Cadiz.
Again, it could be possible that the Toymaker reprogrammed the Armada for his own gain but, as was said before, anything now is open to speculation.

For all we know, Beaksmark could be the toymaker!

Melody Fisher on May 16, 2014 wrote:

Yes, since its creation as a nation state. However, before Germany was a nation state, it was really just a small collection of kingdoms, most of which were not really very powerful in the grand scheme of things. Prussia was not Germany, though it was very powerful and it would make since to have a Prussian army that fought Napoleguin. Bismark was the man who united Germany into a world power, so it would make sense for him to come from, say, the Prussian skyway in a Germanic world rather than Polaris.

Indeed. Germany was originally the German Confederation after Napoleon was defeated. Once Otto Von Bismarck took control, he united every German nation, except Austria, against France and Napoleon III (Napoleon's nephew). After winning and uniting all of Germany, except Austria, under his control, he used his legendary diplomatic skills to establish peace between many other nations. If Beaksmark is the one behind the Armada, my guess is that he'll somehow show his EXTREME displeasure with the return of Napoleguin to Polaris, and he will somehow display an act of war. I believe, if the plotline happens like this, we will HELP Napoleguin rebuild his empire, and unite the worlds of the Spiral against Valencia and the Armada in the Second Polarian War. And for all of you who really want Armada Companions, we won't get them. If we get ANY companion, it's probably going to be NAPOLEGUIN himself, as his gesture of thanks for helping him put down the Armada. What do ya'll think?

Serpent10611 on May 19, 2014 wrote:

Intriguing. A second Polarian War would definitely be another reason to go to Polaris; the first, maybe, being to find Erica the Red and her piece of Pollo's map, since she seems to be a polar bear. As for the Armada companions, there is still a chance we could get at least one. We don't necessarily have to DESTROY the Armada. We could just help Valencia regain control, if not gain control ourselves. Napoleguin companion? He seems too stubbornly self-centered to want to take orders. Maybe one of his lackeys, yes, but Napoleguin would sooner give, nay, bark orders than take them. I'm thinking his favor to us could be repaid by helping to make Skull Island a true republic, as requested by Avery. Now that I think of it, if we do help him win this second Polarian War, he could repay us doubly by also pointing us towards Erica the Red, possibly if she's in Grizzleheim instead of Polaris.

As her name is Erica the Red, I doubt she's a Polar Bear and besides in the photo, she seemed to have dark fur. I agree about Napoleguin, ( as a companion ) a guardsman or how about his valet? You're right, Erica could be anywhere. If SI were a true republic, wouldn't we have elections? Do you see Avery allowing that? Maybe a Constitutional Monarchy would be his cup of 'yum'.

Help Valencia regain control of the Armada, thats a possibility. Though I'ld rather scrap them all rather than take the risk of it all happening again.

anecorbie on May 19, 2014 wrote:

As her name is Erica the Red, I doubt she's a Polar Bear and besides in the photo, she seemed to have dark fur. I agree about Napoleguin, ( as a companion ) a guardsman or how about his valet? You're right, Erica could be anywhere. If SI were a true republic, wouldn't we have elections? Do you see Avery allowing that? Maybe a Constitutional Monarchy would be his cup of 'yum'.

Help Valencia regain control of the Armada, thats a possibility. Though I'ld rather scrap them all rather than take the risk of it all happening again.

Avery did want Skull Island to be a 'true republic', he said so when he sent us to Puerto Mico to get that trade agreement signed.
I know many people would rather scrap the Armada and I fully understand why, especially after all they've done to us. My alternative to Armada companions would be an Armada ship to infiltrate Cadiz or other Valencian skyways, or a least more nutcracker companions (I would love to have a Nutcracker Battle Angel).

Again, I know most people would choose to see the Armada cast asunder in the blink of an eye.
I think this was talked about before somewhere else, but we could still have a clockwork companion of a different sort (besides nutcrackers). When we finally meet the Toymaker, he could build us a completely different style of clockwork whose only programming is to follow our command. It could be called "Abel", as a funny twist to that old "Kane and Abel" story. Still, if all else fails, my accepted alternatives are above.