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The Counter to Black Fog

AuthorMessage
Ensign
Dec 26, 2013
7
I'm not here to rant or anything, but i'm here to find answers. I am a musketeer, and I have one question: what is the counter to black fog? Before you go off and provide me a list of ways that sound good on paper that ultimately do nothing in game for, here is my experience. I have tried:

Knockback bombs - I place the knockback bombs in a position where the buckler has to go through them. The bombs, in my situation, blow the opponent back one spot or into other bombs, or dont affect the enemy at all. My opponent usually has forts or a levi up so they take no damage when they go through bombs and I have just succeeded in stalling him/her for one turn. Plus, his/her companion(s) still can go through the same path or a different path with no repercussion.

Scent 1, 2, 3 pet - The opponent sees that I have a scent 3 pet; he/she waits for pet to arrive to him/her; he/she kills pet; he/she proceeds to fog, and this situation is IF my pet decides to show with its 20% chance

Putting up barricades/various traps - The opponent and their companions either jump or go around obstacles after fog, or they destroy barricades before fog. I have tried using bombs in conjunction with the barricades and traps, but I am back to the situation in "knockback bombs"

First Strike 3 - I have used Ratbeard and given him FS3,RB2,HTL3, and here is how the situation plays out: Opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with their forts and levi up, hit everything that doesnt have rat in their name; then after I am dead with another companion, they proceed to kill remaining companion and Ratbeard

First Strike 3 (All companions) * - I have tried toro, ratbeard, and another companion with FS3 (forgot the name); here's how this situation plays out: opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with defenses and dodging skills, find their way to me (thanks to no way to companion block myself from an opp) and proceed to kill.

Hide - I have tried using my own hide and the above companions. Here is the situation after opp fogs: opp and companions all hit a single companion (ratbeard for example). opp and companion are out of fog, but ratbeard is gone; toro and other companion ultimately fail because they have FS3 and no offensive presence; My hide ends; opp hides while his/her companions hit me; i lose to assassin strike

* This team versus any other class fails 99% of the time, at least in my case

So what I'm trying to say is, i've had a problem against bucklers. Does anyone have a strategy or idea other than the aforementioned above that could help me out in the buckler matchup, but doesn't hinder me versus the other four classes? Black fog won't get banned or touched anytime soon, so to those who say fog should stay untouched because there are "sooooo" many counters to fog that aid a non buckler 100% of the time, please speak up and offer more ideas. I don't want to bash or argue; I just want more brainstorming amongst others.
First Mate
Dec 24, 2009
413
Epicelefun on Aug 8, 2015 wrote:
I'm not here to rant or anything, but i'm here to find answers. I am a musketeer, and I have one question: what is the counter to black fog? Before you go off and provide me a list of ways that sound good on paper that ultimately do nothing in game for, here is my experience. I have tried:

Knockback bombs - I place the knockback bombs in a position where the buckler has to go through them. The bombs, in my situation, blow the opponent back one spot or into other bombs, or dont affect the enemy at all. My opponent usually has forts or a levi up so they take no damage when they go through bombs and I have just succeeded in stalling him/her for one turn. Plus, his/her companion(s) still can go through the same path or a different path with no repercussion.

Scent 1, 2, 3 pet - The opponent sees that I have a scent 3 pet; he/she waits for pet to arrive to him/her; he/she kills pet; he/she proceeds to fog, and this situation is IF my pet decides to show with its 20% chance

Putting up barricades/various traps - The opponent and their companions either jump or go around obstacles after fog, or they destroy barricades before fog. I have tried using bombs in conjunction with the barricades and traps, but I am back to the situation in "knockback bombs"

First Strike 3 - I have used Ratbeard and given him FS3,RB2,HTL3, and here is how the situation plays out: Opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with their forts and levi up, hit everything that doesnt have rat in their name; then after I am dead with another companion, they proceed to kill remaining companion and Ratbeard

First Strike 3 (All companions) * - I have tried toro, ratbeard, and another companion with FS3 (forgot the name); here's how this situation plays out: opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with defenses and dodging skills, find their way to me (thanks to no way to companion block myself from an opp) and proceed to kill.

Hide - I have tried using my own hide and the above companions. Here is the situation after opp fogs: opp and companions all hit a single companion (ratbeard for example). opp and companion are out of fog, but ratbeard is gone; toro and other companion ultimately fail because they have FS3 and no offensive presence; My hide ends; opp hides while his/her companions hit me; i lose to assassin strike

* This team versus any other class fails 99% of the time, at least in my case

So what I'm trying to say is, i've had a problem against bucklers. Does anyone have a strategy or idea other than the aforementioned above that could help me out in the buckler matchup, but doesn't hinder me versus the other four classes? Black fog won't get banned or touched anytime soon, so to those who say fog should stay untouched because there are "sooooo" many counters to fog that aid a non buckler 100% of the time, please speak up and offer more ideas. I don't want to bash or argue; I just want more brainstorming amongst others.
Wow I LOVE your attitude towards the issue! You're one of the first people I've seen who doesn't demand a ban or nerf, but rather trying to find a way to counter. Well done my friend!

As for counters, I unfortunately am still thinking about it(I don't PvP often). This, I'm sure is very bad, is something I've come up with for musketeers(keep in mind, I'm not a musketeer).

1. Step up bombs
2. Put Ratbeard out as bait(wherever you see fit.)
3. Keep your ranged units a good distance from Ratbeard.
4. Once the swash/his companion(s) reach Ratbeard, shoot the living stuffing out of them. Then, double tap/mojo rising will activate(hopefully) giving you another attack at a unit.

Now, I've never tested this, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Idk how useful this is but I hope it helps.

Fearless Dolan Grant lvl65
Ensign
Dec 26, 2013
7
Also, all of the situations above applied to my musketeer. On my buccaneer and privateer, I still have trouble against buckler. On my own swashbuckler, I don't have any problems versus other buckler because (*surprise surprise*) I have my own fog, so if anyone posts an idea below, please make sure that the idea can be applied to all classes. Also, I have tried shielding everyone on my team but here is how that plays out:

Before fog: If I decide to shield premaurely, the buckler just waits out the shields and fogs after the shield's time has ended

After fog: I can't shield everyone fast enough before buckler and friends approach me because buckler and fan can get across the board in short time, goro can charge, nausica can charge, yohr is fast, toro can jump, and other companions can usually come across in one more turn.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
It is very very difficult to beat a good Swashbuckler. While not impossible to beat a Swashbuckler, many of the "counters" people like to throw around to try to argue that Fog is not a broken power don't really work consistently enough.

But let's not get into another discussion of how overpowered Black Fog is, I think we have heard enough of that for now. You're looking for ideas on how to fight it, hopefully I can help a little.

I had the pleasure of going against 7 Swashbucklers in a row yesterday on my Witchdoctor. While not a Musketeer like yourself, Witches too can have a tough time vs Bucklers. From those 7 battles last night, I saw the following kind of working for me:

-Always use Walk in Darkness when they use Fog. This is necessary because even with one shield, they can focus your pirate down and kill it in one turn. Walk in Darkness is the only way to fully protect your Pirate. Without this, you will lose most of the time for sure.

-Trap your own companions with your Raise Barricade once the opponent uses Fog (after you use your hidden that is). Because Barricade now summons 5 obstacles (with 1270 or so health each), you can use that to trap your own companions between the edge of the map and the barricade. Do this close to the corners. Put Bonnie and Chantal in the farthest up places where they can't be reached, and put your third companion on the entrance. That third companion will take the blunt hit of all the damage, so if you can you should fortress that companion before your opponent attacks. Is a bit hard to explain, but if you position yourself just right, you can trap and protect your companions, since the Swashbucklers' companions would have no one else to attack but that first unit. Bonus if said unit is a first strike 3 companion. This strategy won't work on the same opponent twice once they know is coming.

-Hope and pray that your scent pet shows up right after they fog.

Aside from that, not sure what else to tell you. Fog is too much.
Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
-Knockback bombs: The one turn stall can mean one stealth attack or no attack at all. If you manage to pin them, they either a) walk through the bombs or b) walk around them. Either way, you win and usually get one turn. Timing this so they do not get to attack you is key. The biggest problem is the jump passive.

-Scent pets are amazing, but yes timing is also key: In another thread, RatBeard liked my idea of a 'heel type of move, where the pet stays by you, so if that ever comes out that will help. Granted I have a loyal pet, but if the pet can join after they fog, that can be one power wasted.

-With FS3 on Rat, that allows you to focus your defensive buffs on yourself/your companions. He is also good for blocking charges from s, so it is a double counter.

-Running a pure FS3 team is risky, especially since bucklers can get away with using companions. In the right circumstance though, this way you only have to protect yourself.

-Hide (when timed correctly) can not only protect yourself and isolate your defensive buffs to your companions. Then you can counterattack for a high amount of damage(they can't break a musket's hide)

My personal best counter as a musket is a combo between a scent pet and using Forts/ Valor's Armor to protect companions or myself, depending on where my pet is located. Also, if you can get away with Chantal's Sniper Shots and any aoes it works great and allows you to kill the companions really quickly. Of course, any counter we can make, there are ways around it, like there should be. It is a constant loop of find counters to counters, which just comes with Ranked PvP

-Stormy Sam Templeton 65
-Dead-Eye Hunter Gunwale 65
Lieutenant
Jun 08, 2009
126
Epicelefun on Aug 8, 2015 wrote:
I'm not here to rant or anything, but i'm here to find answers. I am a musketeer, and I have one question: what is the counter to black fog? Before you go off and provide me a list of ways that sound good on paper that ultimately do nothing in game for, here is my experience. I have tried:

Knockback bombs - I place the knockback bombs in a position where the buckler has to go through them. The bombs, in my situation, blow the opponent back one spot or into other bombs, or dont affect the enemy at all. My opponent usually has forts or a levi up so they take no damage when they go through bombs and I have just succeeded in stalling him/her for one turn. Plus, his/her companion(s) still can go through the same path or a different path with no repercussion.

Scent 1, 2, 3 pet - The opponent sees that I have a scent 3 pet; he/she waits for pet to arrive to him/her; he/she kills pet; he/she proceeds to fog, and this situation is IF my pet decides to show with its 20% chance

Putting up barricades/various traps - The opponent and their companions either jump or go around obstacles after fog, or they destroy barricades before fog. I have tried using bombs in conjunction with the barricades and traps, but I am back to the situation in "knockback bombs"

First Strike 3 - I have used Ratbeard and given him FS3,RB2,HTL3, and here is how the situation plays out: Opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with their forts and levi up, hit everything that doesnt have rat in their name; then after I am dead with another companion, they proceed to kill remaining companion and Ratbeard

First Strike 3 (All companions) * - I have tried toro, ratbeard, and another companion with FS3 (forgot the name); here's how this situation plays out: opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with defenses and dodging skills, find their way to me (thanks to no way to companion block myself from an opp) and proceed to kill.

Hide - I have tried using my own hide and the above companions. Here is the situation after opp fogs: opp and companions all hit a single companion (ratbeard for example). opp and companion are out of fog, but ratbeard is gone; toro and other companion ultimately fail because they have FS3 and no offensive presence; My hide ends; opp hides while his/her companions hit me; i lose to assassin strike

* This team versus any other class fails 99% of the time, at least in my case

So what I'm trying to say is, i've had a problem against bucklers. Does anyone have a strategy or idea other than the aforementioned above that could help me out in the buckler matchup, but doesn't hinder me versus the other four classes? Black fog won't get banned or touched anytime soon, so to those who say fog should stay untouched because there are "sooooo" many counters to fog that aid a non buckler 100% of the time, please speak up and offer more ideas. I don't want to bash or argue; I just want more brainstorming amongst others.
My best solution is to just run /: buff as much as possible before fog after they use fog immediately start forting yourself and the companion you deem most useful in a 3v4 scenario they won't go for ratbeard remember to stay out of purge magic range and run around after that focus the swashes companions knock them out then just wait out their hiddens use your own hide defensively a lot of it also depends if your opponent misplays but if they do you should have the upper hand
Bosun
Apr 19, 2012
331
Epicelefun on Aug 8, 2015 wrote:
I'm not here to rant or anything, but i'm here to find answers. I am a musketeer, and I have one question: what is the counter to black fog? Before you go off and provide me a list of ways that sound good on paper that ultimately do nothing in game for, here is my experience. I have tried:

Knockback bombs - I place the knockback bombs in a position where the buckler has to go through them. The bombs, in my situation, blow the opponent back one spot or into other bombs, or dont affect the enemy at all. My opponent usually has forts or a levi up so they take no damage when they go through bombs and I have just succeeded in stalling him/her for one turn. Plus, his/her companion(s) still can go through the same path or a different path with no repercussion.

Scent 1, 2, 3 pet - The opponent sees that I have a scent 3 pet; he/she waits for pet to arrive to him/her; he/she kills pet; he/she proceeds to fog, and this situation is IF my pet decides to show with its 20% chance

Putting up barricades/various traps - The opponent and their companions either jump or go around obstacles after fog, or they destroy barricades before fog. I have tried using bombs in conjunction with the barricades and traps, but I am back to the situation in "knockback bombs"

First Strike 3 - I have used Ratbeard and given him FS3,RB2,HTL3, and here is how the situation plays out: Opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with their forts and levi up, hit everything that doesnt have rat in their name; then after I am dead with another companion, they proceed to kill remaining companion and Ratbeard

First Strike 3 (All companions) * - I have tried toro, ratbeard, and another companion with FS3 (forgot the name); here's how this situation plays out: opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with defenses and dodging skills, find their way to me (thanks to no way to companion block myself from an opp) and proceed to kill.

Hide - I have tried using my own hide and the above companions. Here is the situation after opp fogs: opp and companions all hit a single companion (ratbeard for example). opp and companion are out of fog, but ratbeard is gone; toro and other companion ultimately fail because they have FS3 and no offensive presence; My hide ends; opp hides while his/her companions hit me; i lose to assassin strike

* This team versus any other class fails 99% of the time, at least in my case

So what I'm trying to say is, i've had a problem against bucklers. Does anyone have a strategy or idea other than the aforementioned above that could help me out in the buckler matchup, but doesn't hinder me versus the other four classes? Black fog won't get banned or touched anytime soon, so to those who say fog should stay untouched because there are "sooooo" many counters to fog that aid a non buckler 100% of the time, please speak up and offer more ideas. I don't want to bash or argue; I just want more brainstorming amongst others.
Lol. Well, my main pirate is a Buckler and I often find myself asking "Geez, how am I supposed to beat a Musketeer" lol. Musketeers give my Buckler the most trouble by far and my only two losses in ranked are to Musketeers. Here are a few things they do that can ruin the best laid Black Fog plans. Placing traps early and using the obstacles in the middle of some of the battle boards to force me to take a long route around them. This makes it an unwise decision for me to use Fog at that point and forces me to a few things...spread my team out to avoid a barrage of AoE, use some of my shields (which I have a very short supply of) and plan on regrouping later to be able to Fog. This regrouping tactic is easy to spot and can leave us open to bombs and sniper shots. Chantal's Sniper shots can often take out one or more of my companions before we are able to get in a position to hide. My own Musketeer has 3 gear items that provide Valor's Armor and others that give Valor's Fortress. When I see a Buckler getting their team together to fog, I start shielding my team and after they have fogged I use my own hidden which means theirs will expire first and I will consequently land a huge hit myself. Use your Raise Barricades to further force the Bucklers path. Resist the urge to use your bombs early. Save them and use them as offensive tools once the Buckler has made their intentions clear. Also, with the accuracy that Musketeers and their companions already have, I would advise against using El Toro. If your strategy is to disrupt hidden with those melee companions you're using...don't. I don't plan to disrupt Fog. Instead I just try to guide the Bucklers path, shield and brace for impact. Chantal, Bonnie Anne and Nausica is the team I use on my Musket. If you don't have Nausica, try one of the best kept Musket secrets in the game...Duck Holiday. Use agility buffs and these companions are capable of doing huge damage to unshielded melee units once out of hidden.
Ensign
Jul 26, 2015
3
Epicelefun on Aug 8, 2015 wrote:
I'm not here to rant or anything, but i'm here to find answers. I am a musketeer, and I have one question: what is the counter to black fog? Before you go off and provide me a list of ways that sound good on paper that ultimately do nothing in game for, here is my experience. I have tried:

Knockback bombs - I place the knockback bombs in a position where the buckler has to go through them. The bombs, in my situation, blow the opponent back one spot or into other bombs, or dont affect the enemy at all. My opponent usually has forts or a levi up so they take no damage when they go through bombs and I have just succeeded in stalling him/her for one turn. Plus, his/her companion(s) still can go through the same path or a different path with no repercussion.

Scent 1, 2, 3 pet - The opponent sees that I have a scent 3 pet; he/she waits for pet to arrive to him/her; he/she kills pet; he/she proceeds to fog, and this situation is IF my pet decides to show with its 20% chance

Putting up barricades/various traps - The opponent and their companions either jump or go around obstacles after fog, or they destroy barricades before fog. I have tried using bombs in conjunction with the barricades and traps, but I am back to the situation in "knockback bombs"

First Strike 3 - I have used Ratbeard and given him FS3,RB2,HTL3, and here is how the situation plays out: Opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with their forts and levi up, hit everything that doesnt have rat in their name; then after I am dead with another companion, they proceed to kill remaining companion and Ratbeard

First Strike 3 (All companions) * - I have tried toro, ratbeard, and another companion with FS3 (forgot the name); here's how this situation plays out: opp uses fog; opp and companions advance; they, with defenses and dodging skills, find their way to me (thanks to no way to companion block myself from an opp) and proceed to kill.

Hide - I have tried using my own hide and the above companions. Here is the situation after opp fogs: opp and companions all hit a single companion (ratbeard for example). opp and companion are out of fog, but ratbeard is gone; toro and other companion ultimately fail because they have FS3 and no offensive presence; My hide ends; opp hides while his/her companions hit me; i lose to assassin strike

* This team versus any other class fails 99% of the time, at least in my case

So what I'm trying to say is, i've had a problem against bucklers. Does anyone have a strategy or idea other than the aforementioned above that could help me out in the buckler matchup, but doesn't hinder me versus the other four classes? Black fog won't get banned or touched anytime soon, so to those who say fog should stay untouched because there are "sooooo" many counters to fog that aid a non buckler 100% of the time, please speak up and offer more ideas. I don't want to bash or argue; I just want more brainstorming amongst others.
I wouldn't use melee companions. Use as many long range and AoE attacks as you can. Bonnie has a great AoE attack to use against Swashbucklers and it reduces dodge as well as doing good damage to hidden units. Also, ranged units won't trigger things like First Strike and Riposte. Try to make the Swashbuckler delay using Fog and force them to take the longest possible route to get to you without blocking Chantal's line of sight because those Sniper Shots are huge. Use your agility buffs and get some Auric Peril boots so you have your own 5 round hidden. When the Swashbuckler fogs, use your own hide and hit them hard when they come out of Fog.
Ensign
Mar 18, 2015
35
Well, at least Musketeers have options. Privateers either have to shield certain companions + captain or simply take a hit from which we cannot really recover.
Ensign
Dec 26, 2013
7
I have finished reading all of the suggestions posted above, and from my experience, Alex Hawkin's suggestion about the barricades has given me great success. I never thought to use the environment to my advantage and block off a section of the map away from me and my companions by using the "raise barricades" power. I always thought that the barricades would be more effective diagonally but now I will always place them horizontally. Also, I took up Alex's suggestion to use my own hide and utilize ratbeard as a block. By using Alex's strategy, I beat two swashbucklers who BOTH had moo robe. Thank you Alex Hawkins, and thank you to the others for your advice and for the time that you took to help me out. Also, I have one more question:

Should I spend a couple of training points to train the swashbuckler trainer's hide because I have a hide already provided by my gear?
Lieutenant
Feb 02, 2013
119
Epicelefun on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I have finished reading all of the suggestions posted above, and from my experience, Alex Hawkin's suggestion about the barricades has given me great success. I never thought to use the environment to my advantage and block off a section of the map away from me and my companions by using the "raise barricades" power. I always thought that the barricades would be more effective diagonally but now I will always place them horizontally. Also, I took up Alex's suggestion to use my own hide and utilize ratbeard as a block. By using Alex's strategy, I beat two swashbucklers who BOTH had moo robe. Thank you Alex Hawkins, and thank you to the others for your advice and for the time that you took to help me out. Also, I have one more question:

Should I spend a couple of training points to train the swashbuckler trainer's hide because I have a hide already provided by my gear?
Looking at the barricade idea, I might have to try that myself some time
If you have a hide grant gear, There is not too much of a point in getting Walk In Shadows. However, if you think one hide is not enough, go for it!
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Epicelefun on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I have finished reading all of the suggestions posted above, and from my experience, Alex Hawkin's suggestion about the barricades has given me great success. I never thought to use the environment to my advantage and block off a section of the map away from me and my companions by using the "raise barricades" power. I always thought that the barricades would be more effective diagonally but now I will always place them horizontally. Also, I took up Alex's suggestion to use my own hide and utilize ratbeard as a block. By using Alex's strategy, I beat two swashbucklers who BOTH had moo robe. Thank you Alex Hawkins, and thank you to the others for your advice and for the time that you took to help me out. Also, I have one more question:

Should I spend a couple of training points to train the swashbuckler trainer's hide because I have a hide already provided by my gear?
Glad to hear that it has worked out for you! Wasn't sure if my explanation had been clear enough. Just remember that usually your Musket stays out in the open with this strategy, so be sure to always have a Levy/Fortress on you after the Walk in Darkness runs out.

As for the Walk in Shadows, I would definitely suggest to learn it. It helps to buy some time in the later part of the game if you find yourself in a bad spot. For example, you can walk in shadows, heal and then shield. Or shield and then use a trick shot. Since a lot of Musketeers attack get boosted by hidden, it's a generally a good idea to learn it.
Ensign
Oct 25, 2012
9
I was reviewing Alex Hawkins's strategy for musketeer and heard that barricade now summons five barricades. I got on to my level twelve musketeer and proceeded to try out barricade against the troggies in skull island. for some reason it only summoned one barricade. at that point I looked at the musketeer trainer and did not find any other barricades you could possibly learn that summoned five obstacles, and I found no other barricade summons. I thought on the subject of why it was not summoning five obstacles. Finally i came up with two possibilities. One, maybe the people i were facing were not high enough. I tried facing some higher level enemies and that made no difference. The second possibility was that it summons more as your pirate reaches certain levels. Just wondering if anyone could shine some light on the subject. Thanks for the assistance in advance.
Developer
OptimisticOctavio on Aug 10, 2015 wrote:
I was reviewing Alex Hawkins's strategy for musketeer and heard that barricade now summons five barricades. I got on to my level twelve musketeer and proceeded to try out barricade against the troggies in skull island. for some reason it only summoned one barricade. at that point I looked at the musketeer trainer and did not find any other barricades you could possibly learn that summoned five obstacles, and I found no other barricade summons. I thought on the subject of why it was not summoning five obstacles. Finally i came up with two possibilities. One, maybe the people i were facing were not high enough. I tried facing some higher level enemies and that made no difference. The second possibility was that it summons more as your pirate reaches certain levels. Just wondering if anyone could shine some light on the subject. Thanks for the assistance in advance.
Raise Barricade improves in a couple of different ways as you level up.

It gains more hit points (and a new, sturdier look) as you reach certain levels, and it summons more obstacles as well.

By the time you are 65th level (of any class, should you care to cross-train it) it should be 5 squares long and made out of metal.
Ensign
Oct 25, 2012
9
Thank you very much for the information Ratbeard.