Nightblood1995 on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:

And why's that? You can already learn more Witchdoctor Powers than any other side school in terms of secondary Powers, especially now that we have the new PvP Only Power that removes one random Power from your opponent's arsenal. What does making Purge Magic a Witch-only Power do? It gives Witches the boost they need while keeping the other classes at their current level, maintaining the balance so to speak. Why not let other classes have Assassin's Mist, Reckless Frenzy, etc as well then? Witches already have their Charm banned, which would have been a great tactical weapon in their arsenal. Giving them Purge evens the playing field, considering how terrible their defenses are and how reliant they are on quick, heavy ranged hits.

I can live with the x2 damage being removed by it, though I don't see why it should be since, again, it's not even classified as a buff in game. Use Shadowdance, for example, and you'll see that green arrow showing your Critical has been boosted. That is a buff. Use any Hide and you won't see that arrow, indicating it's not a technical 'buff'. In competitive eyes, yes it's a buff since you're boosting your damage but where game mechanics are concerned it's not seen as an active buff, more so a temporarily passive one. If Purge works to remove this then it should do the same for Turn The Tide since both work the same way. The real problem is if we do allow it to affect Hides, then it's going to throw the entire game into wack (again) since we have other classes with their own Talents/Powers that function similarly to Hides mechanically (triggering a temporary and passively boosting a stat). This is why I propose allowing Purge to remove the hidden part of Hide, since it will open up the Swash to direct attack without 'tweaking' the mechanics behind their 'buff' (I use that term loosely). Don't forget, we can only use that double damage 'boost' once before having to reapply it, unlike stat/defense boosts that take time to wear off.

I agree with night blood. The other compromises aren't as good as making it a witch only move.

Compromise 1) Making it remove cloak. That one is good but I doubt KI or any buckler for that matter will like it. Fact is that is powering up purge a little too much and/or nerfing cloak. And I know KI typically doesn't lean toward nerfing things so this suggestion isn't really that viable even if it would be nice.

Compromise 2) Making it remove just the x2 damage. As she pointed out cloak doesn't work that way. I used to like this suggestion until I realized that it doesn't actually affect the player much anyway. Because most smart purge players keep their companions JUST BARELY out of range...but still close enough to RUSH IN once the purge has been cast. So it still overpowers the rush black fog strategy. And it still keep poison over powered. So loosing one round of x2 damage for just the buckler alone...its not a good enough compromise.

Compromise 3) Making it a witch only spell is perfect for 4 reasons!
a) Ensures that no one is nerfed. Cause no one likes that and it often doesn't feel fair.
b) Allows the witches to have the benefit of removing those tanks who have tons of shields and/or absorbs giving them advantage they need. While ensuring that OTHERS can't remove their limited number of shields they pack with gear. They have no armor they NEED those shields. Purging that way from the shadows while your entire team is cloaked and ready for combat, is just not fair.
c) Doesn't nerf poison or black fog...but DOES takes away the massive power up purge gives those two moves. That power up is WAY too intense. If you dont want them nerfed then fine...but don't power them up more!
d) Code wise it is a super easy fix to do. Just like how they made blood robe a no pvp item. All they have to do is attach the no PvP tag to sprocket key's card and they are done. And fixes that make things easier for KI are a good idea :)

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:

Your missing the point. I gave an example of the Talos treasure card in wizard101. Now why did KI decide to only make that summon anti pvp and still let all the other myth spells like quake etc remain? Its because that card did 2 things.
1) It belittled and diminished the specialness of the myth school. Summoning is THEIR thing...and that is their best summons. By letting everyone have it took away from the myth school.
2) It was over powered and gave schools who's main thing is not summon an edge that they shouldn't have. At least not to THAT level.

I feel purge matches those same criteria.
1) Witch players already lost charm. And now purge is given to everyone else. Witches NEED that edge because they dont have as many shields or boosts as all the others. Even their juju one is limited to guys next to them.

2) It over powers players. Especially bucklers. I have already expressed concerns about poison and many others have expressed concerns about black fog. Well weather or not KI decides to nerf them is up to them. But regardless of if it is nerfed or not...it is undeniable that purge DRASTICALLY boosts the effectiveness of both of those moves. It takes their powered up nature and make it MUCH worse, like game ending worse. And they dont even get the full brunt of the consequences for doing it either if they are clever about using it.

Yes purge fits the criteria. Healing as you put it is very limited both in the number people can have and how effective it is.

Talos TC was banned for the same reason polymorph TC were banned-because it allows a low level wizard to summon or become something that is completely overpowered for the level range they can fight in. In fact in the current meta Talos is far from overpowered and I firmly believe the TC should be able to be used at max level just not at lower levels of PvP.

1)Witch players are getting back charm

2)It does not overpower players. Purge is completely avoidable as Quentin has stated and demonstrated in his matches. What purge does do is provide a limited counter to shield stacking that otherwise has NO counter whatsoever.

Eric Stormbringer on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:

Talos TC was banned for the same reason polymorph TC were banned-because it allows a low level wizard to summon or become something that is completely overpowered for the level range they can fight in. In fact in the current meta Talos is far from overpowered and I firmly believe the TC should be able to be used at max level just not at lower levels of PvP.

1)Witch players are getting back charm

2)It does not overpower players. Purge is completely avoidable as Quentin has stated and demonstrated in his matches. What purge does do is provide a limited counter to shield stacking that otherwise has NO counter whatsoever.

I am afraid you are in denial. Its not as easy to dodge as you make it sound. If you run they hit. And while you are running you cant buff or shield or heal or attack. I have lost matches where I am trying to avoid purge and they took advantage my running around to inflict extra damage while my shield and buffs ran out. Yet if I hold my ground I get slammed by purge cloaked rushing team one-two combo.

In response to absorb. Absorb is not perfect even if it is powered up by scratch. It already allows cloaked persons to hit twice from the shadows BOTH times for double damage. Most players have learned to take advantage of that. Whats more is absorb is a tool some pirates REALLY need. The other day I had poison and bleeding that were both about to kill me and I was cursed so i couldnt heal either. My last resort was absorb which I cast and would have saved me. But the pirate purged off my abosrb and shields and just sat back while the dot's that I could no longer stop finished me off. Purge is too strong and its stripping those schools with limited defense of all they have without any "major" consequences to the castor.

I would also like to point out that with purge a witch wont have an opportunity to use charm OR it will be too late. Black fog-purge-rush strategy is so powerful the pirate and/or their entire team is usually dead by the time they come out of fog. For you to use charm as an excuse for why purge should stay...it would have to be able to charm them THROUGH the shadows AND last more than one round. And that would only help witches. Purge is an effective weapon against all the schools.

I have explained very specifically with many examples the ways that it powers up both poison and black fog. All your saying is that "no it doesnt" but without any legitimate exmaples other than running away which I have just explained doesnt actually work. Making it a witch only spell is hands down the best compromise that doesnt power anyone up or nerf anyone either.

I think we can safely end this argument. I just fought and lost to Thomas's Musketeer who was able to avoid purge being utilized throughout the match simply by moving. This demonstrates my point perfectly that movement is a suitable counter to purge and as such I do not believe it needs to be removed or altered in function.

Eric Stormbringer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:

If you run they hit

Correct; if they hit while you have a shield up then your shield accomplished it's purpose. If you hold your ground you can go hidden.

In response to absorb. Absorb is not perfect even if it is powered up by scratch. It already allows cloaked persons to hit twice from the shadows BOTH times for double damage

I should hope it is not perfect; no power is perfect. A scratch buffed absorb can negate 2 or more of your opponents cloaked attacks. That is a strong defense.

Purge is too strong and its stripping those schools with limited defense of all they have without any "major" consequences to the castor.

Every school can have more than one defensive power. Purge is one spell with a one time move that only works in a certain radius and requires your opponent to stand still. That is far more limited than any shield.

I would also like to point out that with purge a witch wont have an opportunity to use charm OR it will be too late. Black fog-purge-rush strategy is so powerful the pirate and/or their entire team is usually dead by the time they come out of fog.

Black Fog purge rush can be countered effectively via barricade and hiding yourself.

I have explained very specifically with many examples the ways that it powers up both poison and black fog. All your saying is that "no it doesnt" but without any legitimate exmaples other than running away
I never said it does not power up Fog and Poison. I said that it is counter-able. Yes running does work because I have seen it work. Quentin himself has stated how it works and the purge card itself will only work from 3 range...so saying that it doesn't work is simply factually incorrect.

I guarantee if you give me a turn by turn scenario I can show you exactly how to counter it.

You yourself admitted it would make swashbucklers much easier to defeat. Sounds like a nerf to me.

I'll ask again:

Have you made your undefeated champion swashbuckler yet? Still awaiting the results so I can concede the point.

Every school more than one defensive power
That is a moot point. Just because a player can have more than one shield is missing the point entirely. The fact is they need whatever shields they can get because a buckler has 3-5 cloaks. I guarantee a witch or musket doesnt have THAT many shields. And for you to just purge one away is a massive hit. Same with absorb. I have used absorb to try and save myself from a poison cursed bleeding combo and the player just removes it! I already cant heal now I cant even stop the DoT's sucking my life away? Its too much.

Barricade cloak
Excuse me but how are players supposed to carry cloak when they are trying to carry shields for that lack? Second most buckler are wise to the barricade strategy and have found ways to counter it. In fact the only way that I have found it can be used consitently is as a musket and only as a bottle neck meathod rather than the walling off your guys one. Further more cloak isnt effective for many players. A) because it leave your team mates exposed. B) Some players like privy have repel boarders or over watch or readied and thus their limited cloak can be removed simply by having one opponent ending their cloak early. (have seen many do this. shielding up and sending one opponent in early) This is hardly an efficient method and actually makes purge MORE effective since they cant run away.

Undefeated buckler.
If you must know I have been pvping with my musket privy and buck this season. How many champions do you want me to make? But ill consider it. Ill even try to get there without purge just to prove that bucklers DONT NEED it.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:

Actually your wrong. Bucklers especially have a natural built in counter to at least several shields. And that is cloaking. Cloaking last just as long as a shield does. All a smart buckler has to do is wait for an opponent to shield up cloak...and then wait out the cloak. Most of the top notch bucklers I fight know this and take their time waiting for that perfect window when all the defense's are used up. Might I also point out that players need those shields as a counter to all the cloaks. YOU GUYS do the massive damage and that brought shield staking back in because bucklers were tearing everyone apart too fast. Why on earth should they allow shield stacking just to give bucklers a way to take away that one hope again?

You are right about one thing though. Purge does indeed counter shield stacking. But as I just pointed out BUCKLERS arent the ones that need that option. Witches are the ones who need that most. Since unlike bucklers they dont have tons of hides to compensate for the opponents shields. Nor do they have shields. Which is why I am NOT suggesting the move as a whole be banned from the game. I am suggesting it be a witch only move. So that OTHER schools can gain the benefit that only witches should have.

Cloaking actually lasts LESS than shields. Unlike shields cloak ends at the end of my round rather than at the beginning of my next round like other buffs. We don't need to counter shield stacking? I beg to differ. If a privateer stacks shields and has soul shroud and I don't have purge to at least remove one shield then I simply lose because they will be doing damage and healing on my round and then they have their round to do as they please.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:

Concerning purge.

Let me start off by repeating your own words back at you about how "no move should be perfect". But purge in the hands of a cloaked bucklers IS perfect. The fact of the matter is if you can use it right it can end the game then and there. And I am sorry but no ONE MOVE should be so strong that it can determine the entire match. That is the very deffiniton of too strong.

As for movement it is not always an option. If they used the barricade as you so aptly suggested odds are they CANT run. And the wall that was protecting them actually just holds them in ready for slaughter.

As for running itself that is highly determined by weather or not they have defenses up ahead of time. Her is the scenario MOST players use.

Move in to poison leave companions out of range. Now they are in range of purge which leaves me with 3 options.
A) I put a shield or absorb to stop poison. Its purged off.
B) I put up too sets of shields and thus burn through them faster. Now I am wide open "later" in the match but the window has still been created.
C) I try to run and they hit my unshielded self. (If I can anticipate what you will do BEFORE you move and put my shield up early. An assuming I have enough shields I can possibly make running work. But thats assuming I KNOW you have purge and start planning for it from the beginning of the match! And if I every forget you have it or fail to plan accordingly. Then its game over. Again I repeat...no one move should be so strong it can determine the entire match. Purge is that type of move. It IS over powered.)

The reason you lost to my musket is because you were impatient and played it wrong AND because I have played you before. I knew you had purge from square one and the way you positioned your guys confirmed it. But most wont pick up on that or realize you have a game ending move such as that. So basically they cant win until after they loose to an opponent several times and realize he is carrying purge. How is that fair?

But purge in the hands of a cloaked bucklers IS perfect. The fact of the matter is if you can use it right it can end the game then and there.

Purge is not perfect. It requires- proper positioning, movement into your opponents sphere, your opponent to not move out of the sphere and it removes your own buffs. As for ending the game-any move if used right can end the game instantly. Reckless Frenzy, Highland Charge, Scratch's buff.

As for movement it is not always an option. If they used the barricade as you so aptly suggested odds are they CANT run. And the wall that was protecting them actually just holds them in ready for slaughter.

In which case you are using barricade ineffectively. We already went through that in the other thread.

As for running itself that is highly determined by weather or not they have defenses up ahead of time.

You always have time to set up that defense. On even the smallest board you will always have an opportunity to set up a defense before I can reach your side of the field. Any move used correctly can determine the match. If I forget about my opponent's scent it can instantly end the match. Is scent overpowered? If I forget about reckless frenzy it can end the match, if I dont react to Highland charge it can end the match. If your criteria for OP is if the opponent forgets then thats a long list of powers that need to be nerfed.

I knew you had purge from square one and the way you positioned your guys confirmed it. But most wont pick up on that or realize you have a game ending move such as that. So basically they cant win until after they loose to an opponent several times and realize he is carrying purge. How is that fair?

The same way I can lose if I am not aware of any number of powers my opponent can pack? Seems fair to me.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:

Concerning purge.

Let me start off by repeating your own words back at you about how "no move should be perfect". But purge in the hands of a cloaked bucklers IS perfect. The fact of the matter is if you can use it right it can end the game then and there. And I am sorry but no ONE MOVE should be so strong that it can determine the entire match. That is the very deffiniton of too strong.

As for movement it is not always an option. If they used the barricade as you so aptly suggested odds are they CANT run. And the wall that was protecting them actually just holds them in ready for slaughter.

As for running itself that is highly determined by weather or not they have defenses up ahead of time. Her is the scenario MOST players use.

Move in to poison leave companions out of range. Now they are in range of purge which leaves me with 3 options.
A) I put a shield or absorb to stop poison. Its purged off.
B) I put up too sets of shields and thus burn through them faster. Now I am wide open "later" in the match but the window has still been created.
C) I try to run and they hit my unshielded self. (If I can anticipate what you will do BEFORE you move and put my shield up early. An assuming I have enough shields I can possibly make running work. But thats assuming I KNOW you have purge and start planning for it from the beginning of the match! And if I every forget you have it or fail to plan accordingly. Then its game over. Again I repeat...no one move should be so strong it can determine the entire match. Purge is that type of move. It IS over powered.)

The reason you lost to my musket is because you were impatient and played it wrong AND because I have played you before. I knew you had purge from square one and the way you positioned your guys confirmed it. But most wont pick up on that or realize you have a game ending move such as that. So basically they cant win until after they loose to an opponent several times and realize he is carrying purge. How is that fair?

Not knowing if they have purge or not, honestly that's not an argument...

You should just always be prepared for the worst and assume they have it.

Ok I purge is even more over powered than I realized. I just played a match against Eric. He used old scratch critical poisoned me for 650 damage per turn. Then when i tried to shield up purged of all of my shields. Forcing me to take 3250 damage. Game over. Worst move for bucklers to have ever. I powers up EVERYTHING! By leaving no hope and no lines of defense. Your only chance is to maybe get in an attack before they do

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:

Nice try rewording but no. Truth is half the time you can't counter it at all. And the other half it ends the game. You see THAT is the big point. And I notice that while you guys give lots of "solutions" to purge. NO ONE has denied its effectiveness. The fact is a well timed purge WILL end the game or skew it SOOOO in your favor that victory is assured. And THAT is what I mean when I say it is over powered. Actually, the fact that you "might" be able to counter it is actually kind of irrelevant. (Even if thats not always true) No one move should be that powerful.

Case in point, the example I mentioned before about how you gave me a 650+ cursed poison for 5 rounds then purged everything off. In that battle I had NO CHANCE to avoid purge. I needed to shield to stop the poison. I had the little fort on already but needed the big one on too. So I had 2 options (since i couldn't heal cause of the curse) Shield...which I did and you purged it off. Or run...and you chase me keeping your purge in range while it continues to do 485 damage for five turns (650 reduced by 25%). AND your guys chasing and hitting me too. I also couldn't hit because you were cloaked! See the issue in the hands of a buckler purge is TOO STRONG!

I repeat no move should be that strong. Or rather, it shouldn't be in the hands of a school that is ALREADY a power house and has loads of weapons at their disposal. Only witches who need that kind of advantage should have this spell.

As for an update on my buckler so far the only people that can beat him are OTHER BUCKLERS! Lol without purge he has torn apart both bucks and privy with ease. Witches are tricky but once you know how to get past a scent pet and barricade I would say that is an even match. But, ONLY because I dont have purge. If I can remove their mega absorbs they place on themselves and andy shields they are toast. Haven't faced any muskets yet so i can't say. So putting purge in the hands of a school as strong as this is just ridiculous.

1. Purge is available to anyone
2. Walk in Shadows and Walk in Darkness is available to anyone through training or gear.
3. it can only be used once.
ANYONE can use the hide/purge combo, not just bucklers. If it's too strong for bucklers, then it's too strong for anyone else.
I wonder why you've completely ignored this fact, but of course, this kind of removes your complaint about bucklers with a purge.

Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:

Ok I purge is even more over powered than I realized. I just played a match against Eric. He used old scratch critical poisoned me for 650 damage per turn. Then when i tried to shield up purged of all of my shields. Forcing me to take 3250 damage. Game over. Worst move for bucklers to have ever. I powers up EVERYTHING! By leaving no hope and no lines of defense. Your only chance is to maybe get in an attack before they do

You had the option to run, you chose not to utilize it and I punished you for it. Welcome to PvP.

anecorbie on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:

1. Purge is available to anyone
2. Walk in Shadows and Walk in Darkness is available to anyone through training or gear.
3. it can only be used once.
ANYONE can use the hide/purge combo, not just bucklers. If it's too strong for bucklers, then it's too strong for anyone else.
I wonder why you've completely ignored this fact, but of course, this kind of removes your complaint about bucklers with a purge.

Saying that everyone can have DOES NOT MEAN that it WORKS the same on everyone. That is like saying two types of schools are the same which is just not true.

Yes can have the same companions and maybe carry have a cloak in your gear. But that doesnt mean it works the same for everyone. Other schools dont have poison. Not everyone has AoE's that can hit through the shadows. No one else can protect their companions by cloaking them too while they set up the window for purging. (You do need to create the right cirucmstances for it be most effective or you will just end up punishing yourself. Truth is only buckler have the resources to set it up that way.) The fact of the matter is in the hands of a skilled buckler purge is TOO strong.

If you honestly think one school can use a spell just as well as another school. Then your seriously confused. Only thing that works the same for all are shields. Everything else even heals varry depending a players stats. And bucklers have to much.

So this entire argument is actually kind of pointless.