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Moo's Robe Too Weak

1
AuthorMessage
Community Leader
I just don't understand this change. Melee units have innately had an advantage with the way arenas are set up and their size and blocking line of sight. That's the way the game was designed - a ranged unit would lose in close quarters with a melee unit.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game. Ultimately, even *I* learned to deal with hide over time, despite being one of the greatest advocates for an effective change.

Hide was available to everyone, but the bans on Central and many of the complains were related specifically to Black Fog, a Swashbuckler-only power. However, Moo's robe, available to everyone, was nerfed with fewer requests than hide. The robe is available to anyone who farms the tower. Someone complained on Twitter that it could takes weeks of farming to get the robe, but it often takes even longer to get a good pet or even to reach level 65, and we don't give out hand-outs for either of those situations.

I have not yet lost a match against someone using Moo's robe, but I have lost several against those without it. The reality is that this power is easier for ranged/magical units to counter, but everyone can still use it, which means it helped balance out the melee versus ranged match-up. Now I fight maybe one ranged unit out of ten matches. I would actually be interested in the data of how many classes are at what ranks and how many people are participating. I think that might be enlightening.

Any insights as to why this was changed?
Swordroll's Blog
https://www.swordroll.com/
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Swordroll on Sep 17, 2015 wrote:
I just don't understand this change. Melee units have innately had an advantage with the way arenas are set up and their size and blocking line of sight. That's the way the game was designed - a ranged unit would lose in close quarters with a melee unit.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game. Ultimately, even *I* learned to deal with hide over time, despite being one of the greatest advocates for an effective change.

Hide was available to everyone, but the bans on Central and many of the complains were related specifically to Black Fog, a Swashbuckler-only power. However, Moo's robe, available to everyone, was nerfed with fewer requests than hide. The robe is available to anyone who farms the tower. Someone complained on Twitter that it could takes weeks of farming to get the robe, but it often takes even longer to get a good pet or even to reach level 65, and we don't give out hand-outs for either of those situations.

I have not yet lost a match against someone using Moo's robe, but I have lost several against those without it. The reality is that this power is easier for ranged/magical units to counter, but everyone can still use it, which means it helped balance out the melee versus ranged match-up. Now I fight maybe one ranged unit out of ten matches. I would actually be interested in the data of how many classes are at what ranks and how many people are participating. I think that might be enlightening.

Any insights as to why this was changed?
Because a lot of players were asking for the nerf or actually demanding it or a ban. I have already addressed Black Fog and don't intend to re-hash it here.
Are the Moo Robes actually weaker? Or is it the fact that the number of warriors appearing is now based on Will?
Don't they still have all their old powers and talents? Vicious Charge, Hold the Line and Cheap shot? They're still effective - the only difference is, we're no longer swarmed by 9 extra team members.
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
Swordroll on Sep 17, 2015 wrote:
I just don't understand this change. Melee units have innately had an advantage with the way arenas are set up and their size and blocking line of sight. That's the way the game was designed - a ranged unit would lose in close quarters with a melee unit.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game. Ultimately, even *I* learned to deal with hide over time, despite being one of the greatest advocates for an effective change.

Hide was available to everyone, but the bans on Central and many of the complains were related specifically to Black Fog, a Swashbuckler-only power. However, Moo's robe, available to everyone, was nerfed with fewer requests than hide. The robe is available to anyone who farms the tower. Someone complained on Twitter that it could takes weeks of farming to get the robe, but it often takes even longer to get a good pet or even to reach level 65, and we don't give out hand-outs for either of those situations.

I have not yet lost a match against someone using Moo's robe, but I have lost several against those without it. The reality is that this power is easier for ranged/magical units to counter, but everyone can still use it, which means it helped balance out the melee versus ranged match-up. Now I fight maybe one ranged unit out of ten matches. I would actually be interested in the data of how many classes are at what ranks and how many people are participating. I think that might be enlightening.

Any insights as to why this was changed?
Because it was broken.
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
I think that the number of warriors should have been kept the same, but they should have lost their charges and had the nerf to levy. As a witchdoctor, I feel that we have too much of a disadvantage in the small arena against charging buccaneers and bucklers with black fog. This can be slowed with exeter/emmet's new powers but often this can't actually be done, because obstacles block line of site in the first turn, so I can't use the slow move until after the buccaneer/buckler spreads out.

Before this update, we could hope to block charges with the moo robe warriors hold the line ability, but now, even with a 100% will boost, I am usually getting 2-4 warriors. If we could have a larger number with just hold the line, then we would have more of a chance. Even with the spell power boost, if we are not able to slow the opposing team in time, we wont be able to deliver any attacks prior to getting charged.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
the midnightpirate on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
Because it was broken.
Harry, it wasn't broken - it was just way too good.
Ensign
Dec 14, 2013
14
In simple terms the robe made the game much less fun; for almost any pvp players I know anyway......other than a few robe spammers.
Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
@so I can't use the slow move until after the buccaneer/buckler spreads out

I didn't had a chance to try it out, but I believe that Emmett's power doesn't require line of vision, just like Big Guns. Or am I wrong? Anyone help?
Developer
Swordroll on Sep 17, 2015 wrote:
I just don't understand this change. Melee units have innately had an advantage with the way arenas are set up and their size and blocking line of sight. That's the way the game was designed - a ranged unit would lose in close quarters with a melee unit.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game. Ultimately, even *I* learned to deal with hide over time, despite being one of the greatest advocates for an effective change.

Hide was available to everyone, but the bans on Central and many of the complains were related specifically to Black Fog, a Swashbuckler-only power. However, Moo's robe, available to everyone, was nerfed with fewer requests than hide. The robe is available to anyone who farms the tower. Someone complained on Twitter that it could takes weeks of farming to get the robe, but it often takes even longer to get a good pet or even to reach level 65, and we don't give out hand-outs for either of those situations.

I have not yet lost a match against someone using Moo's robe, but I have lost several against those without it. The reality is that this power is easier for ranged/magical units to counter, but everyone can still use it, which means it helped balance out the melee versus ranged match-up. Now I fight maybe one ranged unit out of ten matches. I would actually be interested in the data of how many classes are at what ranks and how many people are participating. I think that might be enlightening.

Any insights as to why this was changed?
You really don't see a difference between asking for a nerf/ban on the signature power of a single class, versus asking for a nerf/ban on a rare, exclusive item from high level optional content?

Designers do.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game.

That's obviously not true. Many, MANY things were added or adjusted to address Black Fog.

On the other hand, it's certainly true that many people's "preferred fix" was ignored. That's going to happen, since designers must weigh all player feedback, a broader knowledge of the game, considerations of the overall health of the game (not just 65th level PvP...), considerations of schedule, cost, and risk, and finally their respective design experience before making a decision.

And still we know that no solution is going to please everybody.

For example:

I think that the number of warriors should have been kept the same, but they should have lost their charges and had the nerf to levy.

As I mentioned in another thread, this fix has the advantage of also reducing the duration of combats due to "summon spam," which was also mentioned as a problem. (Besides the advantage of "actually working," that is.)

Even with a 100% will boost, I am usually getting 2-4 warriors.

This fix also has the advantage of being much easier to tweak in the future, if need be. We won't need to add any new functionality, just open up the value for summoning chance (or the WILL boost) and goose it up a couple of points.

As a witchdoctor, I feel that we have too much of a disadvantage in the small arena against charging buccaneers and bucklers with black fog.

As I mentioned before, it's my hope that ALL battleboards will eventually move back to "regulation size." Adjusting powers based on the small battleboards might run the risk of not being balanced for the larger boards-- so I'm trying not to let that influence things too much.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Duncan StormThief on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
@so I can't use the slow move until after the buccaneer/buckler spreads out

I didn't had a chance to try it out, but I believe that Emmett's power doesn't require line of vision, just like Big Guns. Or am I wrong? Anyone help?
Emmet's power is blocked by obstacles. You need to have line of sight of your target, meaning it is useless in ranked PvP. With the small board and obstacles spawning in the middle, you won't find a good time to use it against Bucks and Swashbucklers.
Gunner's Mate
Aug 08, 2010
288
Swordroll on Sep 17, 2015 wrote:
I just don't understand this change. Melee units have innately had an advantage with the way arenas are set up and their size and blocking line of sight. That's the way the game was designed - a ranged unit would lose in close quarters with a melee unit.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game. Ultimately, even *I* learned to deal with hide over time, despite being one of the greatest advocates for an effective change.

Hide was available to everyone, but the bans on Central and many of the complains were related specifically to Black Fog, a Swashbuckler-only power. However, Moo's robe, available to everyone, was nerfed with fewer requests than hide. The robe is available to anyone who farms the tower. Someone complained on Twitter that it could takes weeks of farming to get the robe, but it often takes even longer to get a good pet or even to reach level 65, and we don't give out hand-outs for either of those situations.

I have not yet lost a match against someone using Moo's robe, but I have lost several against those without it. The reality is that this power is easier for ranged/magical units to counter, but everyone can still use it, which means it helped balance out the melee versus ranged match-up. Now I fight maybe one ranged unit out of ten matches. I would actually be interested in the data of how many classes are at what ranks and how many people are participating. I think that might be enlightening.

Any insights as to why this was changed?
Wow. When the moo robe was in it's original state, everybody was complaining, left and right. Now that they're nerfed people are still complaining? What do you expect the developers to do?
Hide is not as controversal because it is only a buckler move. The robe stops any companions from landing hits, and gives a giant wall of hold the line. This nerf is pretty smart, becasue it does not completely rule out the warriors, it just reduces the amount, which can be increased, if you guys read the update notes thouroughly.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Duncan StormThief on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
@so I can't use the slow move until after the buccaneer/buckler spreads out

I didn't had a chance to try it out, but I believe that Emmett's power doesn't require line of vision, just like Big Guns. Or am I wrong? Anyone help?
it requires vision
Petty Officer
Dec 31, 2009
61
With all due respect, before the robe was working the same for everyone regardless of class, the current fix has pretty much rendered it useless for any class that is not will based. Not sure how that balances anything. Most people I have talked to would have been happy just to have the charges removed.

As for summon spam, are not the classes who are will based also the ones who can summon scorpions and hoplites? So now only witchdoctor's can summon spam, problem solved?
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
anecorbie on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
Harry, it wasn't broken - it was just way too good.
Yah it was
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
You really don't see a difference between asking for a nerf/ban on the signature power of a single class, versus asking for a nerf/ban on a rare, exclusive item from high level optional content?

Designers do.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game.

That's obviously not true. Many, MANY things were added or adjusted to address Black Fog.

On the other hand, it's certainly true that many people's "preferred fix" was ignored. That's going to happen, since designers must weigh all player feedback, a broader knowledge of the game, considerations of the overall health of the game (not just 65th level PvP...), considerations of schedule, cost, and risk, and finally their respective design experience before making a decision.

And still we know that no solution is going to please everybody.

For example:

I think that the number of warriors should have been kept the same, but they should have lost their charges and had the nerf to levy.

As I mentioned in another thread, this fix has the advantage of also reducing the duration of combats due to "summon spam," which was also mentioned as a problem. (Besides the advantage of "actually working," that is.)

Even with a 100% will boost, I am usually getting 2-4 warriors.

This fix also has the advantage of being much easier to tweak in the future, if need be. We won't need to add any new functionality, just open up the value for summoning chance (or the WILL boost) and goose it up a couple of points.

As a witchdoctor, I feel that we have too much of a disadvantage in the small arena against charging buccaneers and bucklers with black fog.

As I mentioned before, it's my hope that ALL battleboards will eventually move back to "regulation size." Adjusting powers based on the small battleboards might run the risk of not being balanced for the larger boards-- so I'm trying not to let that influence things too much.
Hmm well thank you for trying your hardest Mr. Beard. I know you guys dont get credit sometimes. Its true that no fix will please everyone. However there is one issue that will probably be ignored because their isnt enough voice out there yet. And that is concerning poison. ((Others complain about Black Fog but its poison that is my issue)) Why oh why can bucklers do 950 magic damage from the shadows without out breaking their cloak? Since most bucklers carry an extra assassins gloom on top of the mist and gloom they already have they can do 2850 damage from the shadows without ACTUALLY hitting and staying safe from other melee counter strikes. As well as poising themselves to strike form the shadows for double damage + bleeding soon afterward. No other school can do this. The mere fact that someone can do that level of damage without even presenting an opening to counter strike is beyond me. Is there anyway that we can address THIS issue? Poision really should break the cloak just like a musket or witches magic damage hit will do if they use them while cloaked. A buckler should have to choose between hitting physically OR magically via poison. Allowing them to do both is too big of an advantage. Regardless of any shields someone might carry.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
Jasmine3429 on Sep 19, 2015 wrote:
With all due respect, before the robe was working the same for everyone regardless of class, the current fix has pretty much rendered it useless for any class that is not will based. Not sure how that balances anything. Most people I have talked to would have been happy just to have the charges removed.

As for summon spam, are not the classes who are will based also the ones who can summon scorpions and hoplites? So now only witchdoctor's can summon spam, problem solved?
Witchdoctors and privateers were the weakest before this update, so yes it balance things.

Also, any class can summon scorpions and hoplites if you have the corresponding gear.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Alex Hawkins on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
Emmet's power is blocked by obstacles. You need to have line of sight of your target, meaning it is useless in ranked PvP. With the small board and obstacles spawning in the middle, you won't find a good time to use it against Bucks and Swashbucklers.
I don't find it useless- simply gunnery the obstacles first round- problem solved.
Gunner's Mate
Dec 16, 2009
212
Thomas Sunhammer on Sep 19, 2015 wrote:
Hmm well thank you for trying your hardest Mr. Beard. I know you guys dont get credit sometimes. Its true that no fix will please everyone. However there is one issue that will probably be ignored because their isnt enough voice out there yet. And that is concerning poison. ((Others complain about Black Fog but its poison that is my issue)) Why oh why can bucklers do 950 magic damage from the shadows without out breaking their cloak? Since most bucklers carry an extra assassins gloom on top of the mist and gloom they already have they can do 2850 damage from the shadows without ACTUALLY hitting and staying safe from other melee counter strikes. As well as poising themselves to strike form the shadows for double damage + bleeding soon afterward. No other school can do this. The mere fact that someone can do that level of damage without even presenting an opening to counter strike is beyond me. Is there anyway that we can address THIS issue? Poision really should break the cloak just like a musket or witches magic damage hit will do if they use them while cloaked. A buckler should have to choose between hitting physically OR magically via poison. Allowing them to do both is too big of an advantage. Regardless of any shields someone might carry.
Poison is already limited enough as is. First of all poison is the only DoT in the game that cannot stack meaning that at max you can only have one poison on you per hide. This means you always have a window of opportunity to counterattack. Second of all it is easily countered by spreading out. You can always ensure that only one of your units is being affected by poison at a time. The ability to poison from the shadows is a key attribute of swashbucklers and assasin tropes in general and should not be changed.
Pirate Overlord
Mar 16, 2012
10631
Jasmine3429 on Sep 19, 2015 wrote:
With all due respect, before the robe was working the same for everyone regardless of class, the current fix has pretty much rendered it useless for any class that is not will based. Not sure how that balances anything. Most people I have talked to would have been happy just to have the charges removed.

As for summon spam, are not the classes who are will based also the ones who can summon scorpions and hoplites? So now only witchdoctor's can summon spam, problem solved?
Welcome to the message boards, Jasmine. Yes, by making the summons will based it does seem to favor Witches and Privys. But just look at the scorpions and hoplites, who takes them seriously? Plus the scorpions don't have a debuff.
So, yeah, for most players it is "problem solved"
( Until the next OP gear/power appears. )
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
You really don't see a difference between asking for a nerf/ban on the signature power of a single class, versus asking for a nerf/ban on a rare, exclusive item from high level optional content?

Designers do.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game.

That's obviously not true. Many, MANY things were added or adjusted to address Black Fog.

On the other hand, it's certainly true that many people's "preferred fix" was ignored. That's going to happen, since designers must weigh all player feedback, a broader knowledge of the game, considerations of the overall health of the game (not just 65th level PvP...), considerations of schedule, cost, and risk, and finally their respective design experience before making a decision.

And still we know that no solution is going to please everybody.

For example:

I think that the number of warriors should have been kept the same, but they should have lost their charges and had the nerf to levy.

As I mentioned in another thread, this fix has the advantage of also reducing the duration of combats due to "summon spam," which was also mentioned as a problem. (Besides the advantage of "actually working," that is.)

Even with a 100% will boost, I am usually getting 2-4 warriors.

This fix also has the advantage of being much easier to tweak in the future, if need be. We won't need to add any new functionality, just open up the value for summoning chance (or the WILL boost) and goose it up a couple of points.

As a witchdoctor, I feel that we have too much of a disadvantage in the small arena against charging buccaneers and bucklers with black fog.

As I mentioned before, it's my hope that ALL battleboards will eventually move back to "regulation size." Adjusting powers based on the small battleboards might run the risk of not being balanced for the larger boards-- so I'm trying not to let that influence things too much.
Right now, I feel that as a witch I am in a spot where I cannot even compete against good PVP players. It is my opinion that witches are broken in PVP. Before this latest update, we could use a broken piece of gear (moo robe) to at least give us a chance to compete and maybe even win sometimes.

We need this scratch buff to be fixed as soon as possible.
Bosun
Dec 16, 2012
331
Jasmine3429 on Sep 19, 2015 wrote:
With all due respect, before the robe was working the same for everyone regardless of class, the current fix has pretty much rendered it useless for any class that is not will based. Not sure how that balances anything. Most people I have talked to would have been happy just to have the charges removed.

As for summon spam, are not the classes who are will based also the ones who can summon scorpions and hoplites? So now only witchdoctor's can summon spam, problem solved?
"With all due respect, before the robe was working the same for everyone regardless of class, the current fix has pretty much rendered it useless for any class that is not will based. Not sure how that balances anything."

The will based classes, Witchdoctor and Privateer were the weakest in PvP before the nerf. This balances this out a bit.

"As for summon spam, are not the classes who are will based also the ones who can summon scorpions and hoplites? So now only witchdoctor's can summon spam, problem solved?"

Well, summon's are kind of the witchdoctor's specialty, so giving them a lot kind of makes sense. Also, seriously, hoplites? those things are some of the weakest things in the game. I am pretty sure every class destroys them with passive talents alone. Now, I believe that one of the main problems with summon spam was that because of the massive amount of of Terror-Cottas with hold the line, no one could get anywhere. With the lower amount of cotta, people can move around. Also, ratbeard has said that he will be trying increase the size of the boards, which would also lower that problem.
Lieutenant
Aug 29, 2008
146
Ratbeard on Sep 18, 2015 wrote:
You really don't see a difference between asking for a nerf/ban on the signature power of a single class, versus asking for a nerf/ban on a rare, exclusive item from high level optional content?

Designers do.

Many, MANY people complained about Fog and hide in general, including after "solutions" were put into place, but none of these cries were answered in-game.

That's obviously not true. Many, MANY things were added or adjusted to address Black Fog.

On the other hand, it's certainly true that many people's "preferred fix" was ignored. That's going to happen, since designers must weigh all player feedback, a broader knowledge of the game, considerations of the overall health of the game (not just 65th level PvP...), considerations of schedule, cost, and risk, and finally their respective design experience before making a decision.

And still we know that no solution is going to please everybody.

For example:

I think that the number of warriors should have been kept the same, but they should have lost their charges and had the nerf to levy.

As I mentioned in another thread, this fix has the advantage of also reducing the duration of combats due to "summon spam," which was also mentioned as a problem. (Besides the advantage of "actually working," that is.)

Even with a 100% will boost, I am usually getting 2-4 warriors.

This fix also has the advantage of being much easier to tweak in the future, if need be. We won't need to add any new functionality, just open up the value for summoning chance (or the WILL boost) and goose it up a couple of points.

As a witchdoctor, I feel that we have too much of a disadvantage in the small arena against charging buccaneers and bucklers with black fog.

As I mentioned before, it's my hope that ALL battleboards will eventually move back to "regulation size." Adjusting powers based on the small battleboards might run the risk of not being balanced for the larger boards-- so I'm trying not to let that influence things too much.
Sorry, I am just wondering something. If part of this fix was to reduce the duration of combats due to "summon span", how come we now have Champion weapons with 9 summons for all classes?

Do they also work like the Terror-Cotta with a 25% chance of summoning them? In which case, doubt many people would get the weapon for the power and just get it for the look. Or do they work like the Scorpion Staff and summons all 9? In which case, you made the duration of combat "summon spam" problem even worse as all classes would be able to use the summons without giving up their main weapon power (as it is the case with using Scorpion Staff over knives, gun, etc)
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
I think its sad that people complain when they can't win. Then the board's response to that person is, "well farm for stronger gear". Then the person does it, working very hard for stronger gear, then returns more powerful then before and gets trolled because they are now stronger than the people who told them to originally farm in the first place. Now those people complain and the person who farmed to become stronger gets a nerf. Wow......I hate that!

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
This nerf is so wrong not all decisions and powers should be based on pvp guys. Come on!

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Ensign
Dec 14, 2013
14
Ratbeard and other developers, I personally think you have done a good job with trying to balance this robe! Maybe it will need to be tweaked a little concerning how much it helps will classes I suspect that data will tell when looked at. I would urge players to be a little patient and think about this; the developers are obviously trying to get it right that is why they make these changes.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
DuranteRamses87 on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
This nerf is so wrong not all decisions and powers should be based on pvp guys. Come on!

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
The robe wasnt nerfed for pve as far as I know.
1