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Moo's Robe Too Weak

2
AuthorMessage
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Silver Angel on Sep 22, 2015 wrote:
The robe wasnt nerfed for pve as far as I know.
Its not. I still use it for smuggler's arena and it works fine in there. So no worries.
Developer
Alex Hawkins on Sep 21, 2015 wrote:
Sorry, I am just wondering something. If part of this fix was to reduce the duration of combats due to "summon span", how come we now have Champion weapons with 9 summons for all classes?

Do they also work like the Terror-Cotta with a 25% chance of summoning them? In which case, doubt many people would get the weapon for the power and just get it for the look. Or do they work like the Scorpion Staff and summons all 9? In which case, you made the duration of combat "summon spam" problem even worse as all classes would be able to use the summons without giving up their main weapon power (as it is the case with using Scorpion Staff over knives, gun, etc)
If part of this fix was to reduce the duration of combats due to "summon span", how come we now have Champion weapons with 9 summons for all classes?

I have the advantage of knowing what's coming on all weapons for all seasons. The actual number of summons remains the same (Robe plus a Weapon) as before; so your concern is warranted if you expect to see more players forgo the other top-tier weapons typical for their class in lieu of the Autumn weapons. (I am dubious.)

As Summer's Fire was intended as a replacement for Blood's Flames, Angry Orchard was conceived as a replacement for Moo's Robe. I don't think the Treants are as good as the Warriors; you may correct me on that perception later, if you like.

Specifically with respect to the Robe, if the players' concerns expressed here are legitimate, then it seemed egregious to "require" all players to commit to using the Robe (as a robe vs. robe defense) and then also to make an uninteresting gear choice extend into an overlong, uninteresting match as well.

But, as you noted, the reduction of summon-spam was only one part of the changes. Just one tick in the plus column.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
If part of this fix was to reduce the duration of combats due to "summon span", how come we now have Champion weapons with 9 summons for all classes?

I have the advantage of knowing what's coming on all weapons for all seasons. The actual number of summons remains the same (Robe plus a Weapon) as before; so your concern is warranted if you expect to see more players forgo the other top-tier weapons typical for their class in lieu of the Autumn weapons. (I am dubious.)

As Summer's Fire was intended as a replacement for Blood's Flames, Angry Orchard was conceived as a replacement for Moo's Robe. I don't think the Treants are as good as the Warriors; you may correct me on that perception later, if you like.

Specifically with respect to the Robe, if the players' concerns expressed here are legitimate, then it seemed egregious to "require" all players to commit to using the Robe (as a robe vs. robe defense) and then also to make an uninteresting gear choice extend into an overlong, uninteresting match as well.

But, as you noted, the reduction of summon-spam was only one part of the changes. Just one tick in the plus column.
So your right they are NOT better than the moo warriors. The problem is, I dont think they are even better than the scorpions. The scorpions have 3 major advantages that put them on par with or better than the trees still.

1 and 2 are both because of the school.
1) Because they are bucklers they do just as much if not MORE damage than the trees. Except for when the trees use up their one super strike card they do less over all damage since the bucklers naturally have so much more. Only after tide do the trees just barely catch up.

2) Because they are bucklers at high levels they have tons of dodge! Even with an accuracy boost and the scorpions with no dodge boost my guys still miss a lot! And when the little buggers have 1000-1200 health (just as much as the buck trees btw) you can't afford to miss.

3) Their movement speed. They can get all the way across the board in no time! Which makes it so they can at least get a hit or two in even if the enemy is trying to pick them off.

The trees on the other hand take forever to go anywhere. Half of them run the wrong way. They have less damage until they are below half health. Even with double boosts they rarely dodge. Hold the line is their only redeeming factor and it doesn't even work on cloak. So essentially buckler, musket, witches, and mojo ranged privy's all tear the trees apart or bypass them before they can do much of anything.

Can you give them some sort of boost? You boosted the summer weapons when players realized the flames weren't effective enough. I am simply asking for something similar to that. You dont have to put them at terror cotta level. But possible suggestions that would help a lot without over powering them are: Turn the tide 3 (will help with accuracy and dodge since they have none. And it still only works after health is half gone). More movement speed. Changing their bladestorm 1 to relentless 1. You can choose 1, 2 or even all 3 of these and it will give them a competitive edge.
Lieutenant
Feb 13, 2013
143
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 10, 2015 wrote:
So your right they are NOT better than the moo warriors. The problem is, I dont think they are even better than the scorpions. The scorpions have 3 major advantages that put them on par with or better than the trees still.

1 and 2 are both because of the school.
1) Because they are bucklers they do just as much if not MORE damage than the trees. Except for when the trees use up their one super strike card they do less over all damage since the bucklers naturally have so much more. Only after tide do the trees just barely catch up.

2) Because they are bucklers at high levels they have tons of dodge! Even with an accuracy boost and the scorpions with no dodge boost my guys still miss a lot! And when the little buggers have 1000-1200 health (just as much as the buck trees btw) you can't afford to miss.

3) Their movement speed. They can get all the way across the board in no time! Which makes it so they can at least get a hit or two in even if the enemy is trying to pick them off.

The trees on the other hand take forever to go anywhere. Half of them run the wrong way. They have less damage until they are below half health. Even with double boosts they rarely dodge. Hold the line is their only redeeming factor and it doesn't even work on cloak. So essentially buckler, musket, witches, and mojo ranged privy's all tear the trees apart or bypass them before they can do much of anything.

Can you give them some sort of boost? You boosted the summer weapons when players realized the flames weren't effective enough. I am simply asking for something similar to that. You dont have to put them at terror cotta level. But possible suggestions that would help a lot without over powering them are: Turn the tide 3 (will help with accuracy and dodge since they have none. And it still only works after health is half gone). More movement speed. Changing their bladestorm 1 to relentless 1. You can choose 1, 2 or even all 3 of these and it will give them a competitive edge.
Not sure if your champion or not but I'll go a head and say that summons seem to be fine and great job to ki for making fair summons
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
the midnightpirate on Oct 12, 2015 wrote:
Not sure if your champion or not but I'll go a head and say that summons seem to be fine and great job to ki for making fair summons
Yes I am a champion. My opinion is an informed one. And I dont think they are worse than the scorpions by a lot...they dont need a ton of stuff. Just a few tweaks since they are new.

We dont have to over power the trees. They just need a little bit extra. Movement speed alone is a big one. A tree in the back of the line...has to run in the wrong direction because his movement speed ISNT ENOUGH to walk past his fellow trees. So a third of your trees run the wrong way the moment they appear then take forever to get to their target. Like the hold the line alone isn't quite enough. They need a little more.

My disappointment comes from the fact that the scorpions are still better then the pvp weapon you have to fight tooth and nail to gain when the staff is relatively easy to gain and comes with loads of benefits even if you fail to get it early on
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Hey is it just me or did they increase the movement speed of the trees from 3 up to 5? Will do more tests with confirmation. But so far it seems like they actually getting to their target now! :D
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:
Hey is it just me or did they increase the movement speed of the trees from 3 up to 5? Will do more tests with confirmation. But so far it seems like they actually getting to their target now! :D
Hmm really now, why do they keep not saying anything in update notes? :/
Developer
Silver Angel on Oct 19, 2015 wrote:
Hmm really now, why do they keep not saying anything in update notes? :/
Because no change was made.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Oct 20, 2015 wrote:
Because no change was made.
Your right. I jumped the gun and got a little excited. Turns out someone had done a movement speed something or other and I hadn't noticed. Plus it seemed to have lasting effects which i think was a glitch. At any rate next battle I tested it out they were back to normal.

However now that I have seen how effective they are with just 2 more movement speed. So jumping them up from 3 to 5. It was wonderful! That is seriously all they need to be worthwhile and better than the scorpions. But even then its not better by a ton. So its not like it will over power them. As it is now a third of them run in the wrong direction when first summoned or take weird out of the way routes, that literally makes it so half of them take 4 or 5 rounds to even get to the target, EVEN IF they are summoned relatively close.

Please consider this small change Mr. Beard :) They updated the summer weapons to make them more effective. This one could use a tiny change too if your willing.
Developer
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 20, 2015 wrote:
Your right. I jumped the gun and got a little excited. Turns out someone had done a movement speed something or other and I hadn't noticed. Plus it seemed to have lasting effects which i think was a glitch. At any rate next battle I tested it out they were back to normal.

However now that I have seen how effective they are with just 2 more movement speed. So jumping them up from 3 to 5. It was wonderful! That is seriously all they need to be worthwhile and better than the scorpions. But even then its not better by a ton. So its not like it will over power them. As it is now a third of them run in the wrong direction when first summoned or take weird out of the way routes, that literally makes it so half of them take 4 or 5 rounds to even get to the target, EVEN IF they are summoned relatively close.

Please consider this small change Mr. Beard :) They updated the summer weapons to make them more effective. This one could use a tiny change too if your willing.
However now that I have seen how effective they are with just 2 more movement speed.

Yes, but effective at what?

They were designed to be slow for a reason. (Several reasons, actually.)
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Oct 21, 2015 wrote:
However now that I have seen how effective they are with just 2 more movement speed.

Yes, but effective at what?

They were designed to be slow for a reason. (Several reasons, actually.)
Yes, but effective at what?
At getting to a target and actually fighting. I find it highly annoying when half of my trees run the WRONG WAY the moment I summon them because they cant move past their own team mates. Then continue to bump into and get in each others way as they slowly try to make it the opponent. Basically they aren't very efficient at actually fighting the enemy.

As for your several reasons. I and many others would LOVE to hear what those reasons are! Pirates love to hear what you guys are thinking and your reasons behind doing what you do.
Developer
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:
Yes, but effective at what?
At getting to a target and actually fighting. I find it highly annoying when half of my trees run the WRONG WAY the moment I summon them because they cant move past their own team mates. Then continue to bump into and get in each others way as they slowly try to make it the opponent. Basically they aren't very efficient at actually fighting the enemy.

As for your several reasons. I and many others would LOVE to hear what those reasons are! Pirates love to hear what you guys are thinking and your reasons behind doing what you do.
Screwdrivers aren't very effective as hammers, but that's hardly a good argument for making them heavier and attaching a perpendicular handle to them.
Lieutenant
Dec 19, 2011
133
Ratbeard on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:
Screwdrivers aren't very effective as hammers, but that's hardly a good argument for making them heavier and attaching a perpendicular handle to them.
Personally, I think that the trees are good as-is. Even with the walking range of 3, they can still get to the target if they are placed close enough to where you want them. Since we can walk and summon, this can be accomplished most of the time.
Lieutenant
Nov 21, 2010
103
I believe that Ratbeard is saying that their purpose weren't to hit an opponent.
How I see, they spread slowly away from you, making a HtL barrier and giving you an opportunity, as a ranged unit, to attack the charging melee unit, while he is trying to get to you, unsuccessfully.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman
Admiral
Jul 07, 2013
1124
Ratbeard on Sep 24, 2015 wrote:
If part of this fix was to reduce the duration of combats due to "summon span", how come we now have Champion weapons with 9 summons for all classes?

I have the advantage of knowing what's coming on all weapons for all seasons. The actual number of summons remains the same (Robe plus a Weapon) as before; so your concern is warranted if you expect to see more players forgo the other top-tier weapons typical for their class in lieu of the Autumn weapons. (I am dubious.)

As Summer's Fire was intended as a replacement for Blood's Flames, Angry Orchard was conceived as a replacement for Moo's Robe. I don't think the Treants are as good as the Warriors; you may correct me on that perception later, if you like.

Specifically with respect to the Robe, if the players' concerns expressed here are legitimate, then it seemed egregious to "require" all players to commit to using the Robe (as a robe vs. robe defense) and then also to make an uninteresting gear choice extend into an overlong, uninteresting match as well.

But, as you noted, the reduction of summon-spam was only one part of the changes. Just one tick in the plus column.
Unfortunately some changes are forced upon you caused by a lack of player creativity because one person finds a strategy and then everybody does it.

Virtuous Dante Ramsey
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Oct 22, 2015 wrote:
Screwdrivers aren't very effective as hammers, but that's hardly a good argument for making them heavier and attaching a perpendicular handle to them.
Thank you for answering :) I understand your analogy. But its not quite answering my question. If you wouldn't mind I would love more specifics into WHY you set it up the way that you did. To stick with your analogy, what was your thought process when you decided to design it AS a screw driver and not a hammer from the start?

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to reply.
Bosun
Apr 28, 2014
398
Duncan StormThief on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
I believe that Ratbeard is saying that their purpose weren't to hit an opponent.
How I see, they spread slowly away from you, making a HtL barrier and giving you an opportunity, as a ranged unit, to attack the charging melee unit, while he is trying to get to you, unsuccessfully.

Sincerely,
Stubborn Duncan Freeman
Pretty sure this is why treants only have 3 range, they protect summoner better with hold the line I guess.
Developer
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 23, 2015 wrote:
Thank you for answering :) I understand your analogy. But its not quite answering my question. If you wouldn't mind I would love more specifics into WHY you set it up the way that you did. To stick with your analogy, what was your thought process when you decided to design it AS a screw driver and not a hammer from the start?

Thank you for taking the time out of your day to reply.
"We sure have a lot of hammers. Maybe the players would like to try a screwdriver instead."
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Ratbeard on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:
"We sure have a lot of hammers. Maybe the players would like to try a screwdriver instead."
RB-- so you are saying some players should try to 'ratchet up' their thinking, a wee bit? Or even graduate to the glorious impact driver...who wouldn't want to give that a try??!!

Thomas...At work I can spend half a day driving in one 8 inch lag with a hammer and surely get that one job done-- along with acquiring some aching, yet Popeye-esque forearms (and delaying the overall job). Or....I could improvise, adapt and overcome with the tools provided, grab a drill bit and that impact wrench and put in 10 lags in under 2 minutes.

The tools have been provided and they are awaiting qualified operators.

Muscle is strong, but the Mind is Mighty!
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
Ratbeard on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:
"We sure have a lot of hammers. Maybe the players would like to try a screwdriver instead."
A lot? Only other summon weapon is the the scorpion staff. And the moo robe was nerfed. So if one and a half is "a lot" well ok then.

But since you answered with out actually answering I guess you don't really feel like sharing your guy's (KI's) thought and insights. Im sorry I asked.

Thanks for responding anyway. I guess I'll just speculate with everyone else.
Gunner's Mate
Sep 30, 2009
240
ValkoorTheVictorio... on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:
RB-- so you are saying some players should try to 'ratchet up' their thinking, a wee bit? Or even graduate to the glorious impact driver...who wouldn't want to give that a try??!!

Thomas...At work I can spend half a day driving in one 8 inch lag with a hammer and surely get that one job done-- along with acquiring some aching, yet Popeye-esque forearms (and delaying the overall job). Or....I could improvise, adapt and overcome with the tools provided, grab a drill bit and that impact wrench and put in 10 lags in under 2 minutes.

The tools have been provided and they are awaiting qualified operators.

Muscle is strong, but the Mind is Mighty!
Valkoor. I already understood the analogy. I already made my understanding clear in the following post. So why on earth do you feel the need to give MORE examples? I was asking them to share their insight and inspiration when they made the summons that way. There is nothing wrong with wanting a peak into the creative minds working at KI.

If Ratbeard wants to give an playful answer he is welcome to it since he has put forth a lot of work for us in this game and has earned the right to be cheeky when replying to peoples posts (after all it must be exhausting got to keep it lively some how.) You however DO NOT work hard for the company and player (I assume). Your response does nothing to help answer my original question of "why". So I would appreciate it if you would refrain from posting unless its constructive to the original intention.

(If you need an example of constructive thoughts. Scroll up to Duncan/Silver Angel posts where hey actually give a viable/possible answer to the question of "why". Even if it is just speculation.)
Dread Pirate
Jun 17, 2013
2743
Thomas Sunhammer on Oct 28, 2015 wrote:
Valkoor. I already understood the analogy. I already made my understanding clear in the following post. So why on earth do you feel the need to give MORE examples? I was asking them to share their insight and inspiration when they made the summons that way. There is nothing wrong with wanting a peak into the creative minds working at KI.

If Ratbeard wants to give an playful answer he is welcome to it since he has put forth a lot of work for us in this game and has earned the right to be cheeky when replying to peoples posts (after all it must be exhausting got to keep it lively some how.) You however DO NOT work hard for the company and player (I assume). Your response does nothing to help answer my original question of "why". So I would appreciate it if you would refrain from posting unless its constructive to the original intention.

(If you need an example of constructive thoughts. Scroll up to Duncan/Silver Angel posts where hey actually give a viable/possible answer to the question of "why". Even if it is just speculation.)
Hey, just trying to lighten the mood a bit...which doesn't seem likely to happen, in your regards. I don't need to earn the right to be cheeky, for I am cheeky by nature-- I've even got the DNA to prove it. If you've spent any time here on the boards you would surely know that I have tried my best to help out fellow posters, players & friends on the boards & in/with the game. And yes all done with a buttload of cheeky thrown in there.

And I absolutely realize that you understood the analogy, as it was cleverly cut & dry. And besides, you wrote that you got the analogy...so there was no misinterpretation on my part.

Maybe, just perhaps, before asking the question of 'why on earth do you feel the need to give MORE examples?', you should possibly entertain the notion of that very same question, yourself. You have posted many threads & posts that continually seem to ask the same questions & provide the same arguments...over & over again, albeit with slightly different yet, the same, approaches. Your wise & kind, fellow posters, developers & pirates have given you many insightful tools, examples & tips in order to help you grasp what you are reaching for, in those many instances. Yet you have perpetually continued with more examples & arguments, while in many cases dismissing, disregarding & disputing what they & even RB have provided you. Might I suggest actually heeding their advice & opening yourself up to accepting their generous offerings. One can learn a lot from listening to others if one is willing to hear them.

And you know what, doing so-- crazy as it seems-- has the potential of making you a better player & pirate & more.

I'm not the argumentative type, but I understand that some relish the opportunity to stir the pot. If by chance you fall into that category (not judging mind you, merely drawing conclusions based upon countless observations)...well then, have at it & have fun. If that is your idea of fun?

But I am off to continue to be cheeky elsewhere.
Commodore
Feb 02, 2013
838
Ratbeard on Oct 26, 2015 wrote:
"We sure have a lot of hammers. Maybe the players would like to try a screwdriver instead."
i believe i speak for everyone when i say what we really wanted was a chainsaw instead of a screwdriver
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